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Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

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Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:53 am

Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]




Thread was inspired by a forum member who ran into my Subtitle/Dub differences information. Basically, this nice person wanted to know if she was in for yuri ambiguity with Shizuru and Natsuki.

Recap!!!

What my fansubs said:

"Shizuru...you were the first one who came to me when I was unable to believe anyone.
But, as I thought, i cannot have the feelings you wish I did.
Even then...
... I am happy that you loved me (suki).
I love (suki) you, Shizuru"


What silly ol' Bandai Entertainment said:

"Shizuru...
I was someone who never trusted anybody.
But then I came here, and you were the first to embrace me.
But...
I wasn't able to reciprocate my feelings in the way that you wanted.
Still...
... I am flattered that you fell in love with me.
I love you (too ?), Shizuru."


So she asked:

So could anyone here enlighten me as to which words were used? There's a huge difference between the words "cannot" and "wasn't" since one is present tense and one is past tense. Does anyone know enough Japanese to explain the word choice there? Inquiring minds wanna know before they risk losing that little mind if they watch yet another anime where they feel manipulated by the writers regarding yuri content.

I'll let Midori post her response to that, I always have the honors. :3

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Midori Sugiura99 on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:03 am

Alright, as a disclaimer, my listening skills aren't quite as good as my reading/writing skills, and the Japanese language can mean so many things by just one simple word or phrase, so this is only my interpretation of what was said. I'm not saying my interpretation is the absolute and only way it could be translated, this is just what I took from her words:


"Shizuru, you were the first one who came to me when I didn't believe in anyone.

Of course, I didn't return the feelings as you wish I had.

Even then, I'm happy that you loved me.

I love you, Shizuru."


She uses "yappari," which can mean, "As I thought," or "Of course," or even "In spite of," but I interpreted as "of course," since Shizuru knows that Natsuki wasn't returning the feelings, at least not openly.

Natsuki also doesn't use any verb form to mean "to be able to"... she just said she didn't return the feelings, or wasn't returning the feelings at the time. So, to me, she wasn't saying that she wasn't capable of returning the feelings, she just didn't. Also that "flattered that you loved me" in the official subs isn't really what she said. She said she was happy/glad, not flattered. I see that as a big difference. When Natsuki says, "I love you," there's no saying of "too," or anything, so that's left a little vague.

I hope I answered this member's question okay. I like ambiguity, it makes the relationship a little more realistic, I think, especially more realistic for Japanese society. Not that forward yuri relationships aren't fun, of course. ~_^

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by cecirdr on Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:50 pm

Thanks for taking the time to go over this again. I know this topic is ancient history for you veterans. I'm completely new to the Mai Multiverse and have only even been watching anime for a few months so forgive me for dredging it up again. (BTW, I'm one of those people though who aren't fond of ambiguity, but given that it may be a deeply integral part of Japanese culture, there is little I can do about it. But I also suspect that some of the reasons they keep things vague are to make sure they alienate any audience demographic.)

Anyway, to fulfill my curiosity, I tried listening *really* close to the japanese words and trying to write them down in romaji to see if I could figure out for myself what she really said. If anyone can help out, here's what I hear:

"Demo yappari watashi wa omae no nozomi [ona/onna] kimochi [motanai/mottainai]"

The words in brackets are pronounced in such a way that I just can't quite figure them out. I also didn't hear kimochi...it sounded more like kimochan, but that is obviously not correct.

If Natsuki said motanai, it could be an informal negative of the verb "to have" which is motsu. Changing motsu to the ~nai form would mean "do *not* have" and that means that it's present tense. I didn't hear the double consonant if she said mottainai, but I also didn't hear it for yappari. Mottainai is something like regret for wasting.

Anyway, no matter how I parse it, the phrase appears to be present tense, not past tense like it was translated in the dub. I know zip about Japanese, but from my meager attempt to play with this puzzle I get something like:

"But, (of course or as expected) I don't have the feelings you wish I did."

Yappari is apparently a strong way to say as expected, or of course, implying it is the normal way to feel/be.

For me though, the puzzle is solved. Unless someone corrects me (and I'm actually hoping that I'm wrong) I hear it that Natsuki accepted that Shizuru felt romantic love toward her, but she strongly stated that she did not return those feelings, yet she did love her too.

Whew, ok...my brain is numb. I spent *way* too long pondering this. Time for me to get back to studying and getting ready for work tomorrow.




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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Midori Sugiura99 on Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:40 pm

cecirdr wrote:(BTW, I'm one of those people though who aren't fond of ambiguity, but given that it may be a deeply integral part of Japanese culture, there is little I can do about it. But I also suspect that some of the reasons they keep things vague are to make sure they alienate any audience demographic.)

I believe its more the integral part of Japanese culture, rather than catering to a certain audience. Not only with homosexuality, but other aspects of the culture as well. Like if someone asks you to do something, and you can't for whatever reason, you say, "Sore wa chotto..../That's a little...." never stating your real reason that you can't go with them or whatever. The whole culture's dynamic is very ambiguous.


cecirdr wrote:Anyway, to fulfill my curiosity, I tried listening *really* close to the japanese words and trying to write them down in romaji to see if I could figure out for myself what she really said. If anyone can help out, here's what I hear:

"Demo yappari watashi wa omae no nozomi [ona/onna] kimochi [motanai/mottainai]"

The words in brackets are pronounced in such a way that I just can't quite figure them out. I also didn't hear kimochi...it sounded more like kimochan, but that is obviously not correct.

After listening to it a bit closer, it's "Demo yappari watashi wa omae no nozomu you na kimochi wo mottenai."

cecirdr wrote:If Natsuki said motanai, it could be an informal negative of the verb "to have" which is motsu. Changing motsu to the ~nai form would mean "do *not* have" and that means that it's present tense. I didn't hear the double consonant if she said mottainai, but I also didn't hear it for yappari. Mottainai is something like regret for wasting.

As far as I can tell, she's saying "mottenai," which is the informal version of "motteinai," which means you are doing whatever it is the verb is doing, in this case, having feelings/holding feelings. You're right, that it would be in the present tense, but it gets a little tricky and more ambiguous because she's saying that she doesn't have the exact same feelings that Shizuru wishes she did. The "you na" in front of "kimochi" (feelings) means like, the "type of" feelings. But she's not saying she doesn't have any feelings at all. It's kinda like she's being deliberately ambiguous, at least that's how I see it.

cecirdr wrote:Anyway, no matter how I parse it, the phrase appears to be present tense, not past tense like it was translated in the dub.

Yes, it does seem that way. I put it in past tense in my explanation too, and I really don't know why. I think I got confused with the whole "feelings you hoped I had" being past tense and stuff.


cecirdr wrote:Yappari is apparently a strong way to say as expected, or of course, implying it is the normal way to feel/be.

Indeed, you are correct. It can have many meanings, but the feeling of the word is a very definite tone.

cecirdr wrote:For me though, the puzzle is solved. Unless someone corrects me (and I'm actually hoping that I'm wrong) I hear it that Natsuki accepted that Shizuru felt romantic love toward her, but she strongly stated that she did not return those feelings, yet she did love her too.

Whew, ok...my brain is numb. I spent *way* too long pondering this. Time for me to get back to studying and getting ready for work tomorrow.

LOL I think you got it :3 I hope I helped clear up any other confusion you had!


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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by cecirdr on Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:54 am

I believe its more the integral part of Japanese culture, rather than catering to a certain audience.

Actually, I figured that part of the reason is to make sure *not* to cater for a certain audience...ergo, be sure to leave things vague so any type of viewer can project their preferences onto the situation. But only the writers, marketing droids, and the director really know all the whys.

Like if someone asks you to do something, and you can't for whatever reason, you say, "Sore wa chotto..../That's a little...." never stating your real reason that you can't go with them or whatever. The whole culture's dynamic is very ambiguous.

So *that's* what's up! I've seen this in several animes and I had NO idea what the blink was going on. Argh! I'd be temped to tell someone to just spit it out and tell me what they're really thinking. Then again, even in the more upfront culture of the U.S., my social skills border on retarded. If someone isn't obvious with me, I'm the clueless wonder.

But she's not saying she doesn't have any feelings at all. It's kinda like she's being deliberately ambiguous, at least that's how I see it.

Yeah, that's the message I got too. To be willing to fight and die with Shizuru....that's mighty big love if you ask me.

LOL I think you got it :3 I hope I helped clear up any other confusion you had!

Thank you so much for taking this much time with a question that I'm sure the community is tired of hearing. I appreciate the kindness.

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Midori Sugiura99 on Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:48 pm

cecirdr wrote:
Like if someone asks you to do something, and you can't for whatever reason, you say, "Sore wa chotto..../That's a little...." never stating your real reason that you can't go with them or whatever. The whole culture's dynamic is very ambiguous.

So *that's* what's up! I've seen this in several animes and I had NO idea what the blink was going on. Argh! I'd be temped to tell someone to just spit it out and tell me what they're really thinking. Then again, even in the more upfront culture of the U.S., my social skills border on retarded. If someone isn't obvious with me, I'm the clueless wonder.

LOL I know what you mean. There are so many things like that in Japanese culture/language. Sometimes you just want to shake the person and be like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN?!" I find it really interesting how passive their language can be like that.

cecirdr wrote:
But she's not saying she doesn't have any feelings at all. It's kinda like she's being deliberately ambiguous, at least that's how I see it.

Yeah, that's the message I got too. To be willing to fight and die with Shizuru....that's mighty big love if you ask me.

Yeah, I would say so O_O

cecirdr wrote:
LOL I think you got it :3 I hope I helped clear up any other confusion you had!

Thank you so much for taking this much time with a question that I'm sure the community is tired of hearing. I appreciate the kindness.

It's no problem at all! Glad I could use my Japanese skizzils to help you out :D

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Abicion on Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:14 pm

So on one hand you guys are talking about how Natsuki's confession scene is beautiful and ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways, but on the other one of the Mods decides to go out and delete any interpretation that doesn't adhere to a strict pro-ShizNat agenda.

Depressing.

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Midori Sugiura99 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:07 am

Abicion wrote:So on one hand you guys are talking about how Natsuki's confession scene is beautiful and ambiguous and can be interpreted multiple ways, but on the other one of the Mods decides to go out and delete any interpretation that doesn't adhere to a strict pro-ShizNat agenda.

Depressing.

Me being a mod has nothing to do with it. Me knowing Japanese does. That's why I make the post.

Anyways, yes, its ambiguous, but she obviously has feelings for her if she's willing to go fight and die for her. Yes, its pro-ShizNat, but they've made it that way themselves with their dialogue. If it wasn't pro-ShizNat, Natsuki wouldn't have said anything like she was happy Shizuru loved her, or kissed her and died with her.

I'm actually not the biggest ShizNat fan in the world (I like the pairing but it doesn't make or break the show for me), so I don't see my interpretation having that bias, I was just looking at the language and how the characters themselves portrayed it.

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by cecirdr on Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:34 pm

Mea culpa if my question encroached into territory best left alone.

I simply wanted to know more accurately what was really said since there was a discrepancy between the dub and the sub. It was never my intention to question what sort of relationship this pair had/have/will have. I figure each person watching the show will have to project their own life experiences/expectations onto these characters.

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by Midori Sugiura99 on Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:06 pm

cecirdr wrote:Mea culpa if my question encroached into territory best left alone.

I simply wanted to know more accurately what was really said since there was a discrepancy between the dub and the sub. It was never my intention to question what sort of relationship this pair had/have/will have. I figure each person watching the show will have to project their own life experiences/expectations onto these characters.

Your question was perfectly legitimate and you shouldn't be afraid to ask anything that's on your mind. That's what we're here for!

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

Post by GAP on Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:35 am

One thing that always btohered me about the scene, was this the scene that cemented thet fact Natsuki loves Shizuru to their fans? I read the subtitles and from I had seen, it looked like Natsuki was accepting her feelings but she didn't love Shizuru like that at all. Waht about the scene in an eariler where Shizuru mentioned, "But I don't love you the way you you love me" or something like that.

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Re: Natsuki's declaration in the final battle [Mai-HiME]

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