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Analyzing Natsuki

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:09 am

Hollowed-Words wrote:She's got everything. She's a bad ass, she's a rebel with bad aim and a bad attitude and has a vendetta against most of the world. Then she grows and opens up and becomes cute and goofy and and friendly.
So basically you enjoy seeing strong, independent, Ellen Ripley-like female characters become completely demasculinized and robbed of everything that makes their character interesting.

:/

My answer is Otome Natsuki, btw. She was the most balanced.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by ookamidesu on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:34 am

Abicion wrote:
Hollowed-Words wrote:She's got everything. She's a bad ass, she's a rebel with bad aim and a bad attitude and has a vendetta against most of the world. Then she grows and opens up and becomes cute and goofy and and friendly.
So basically you enjoy seeing strong, independent, Ellen Ripley-like female characters become completely demasculinized and robbed of everything that makes their character interesting.



I don't think that is what Hollowed meant at all. The point Hollowed was making was that Natsuki started off as a strong and independent character who had trust issues because of her past. Over the course the series, she opens up to the idea of depending on other people (like Mai), but that doesn't mean she loses her independence.

It's just that she grew. Natsuki's character development is one of someone who hated the world and was unwilling to trust other people to a team player. A leader, even. I've been through enough to know that a leader needs to trust not only their superiors, but their comrades and their subordinates. The fact that Natsuki grew in such a way was (in my personal opinion) the most interesting character development out of all the HiMEs.

And besides, Natsuki was never all that masculine to begin with. She has a lingerie collection, after all. You can only be so manly with a lingerie collection. Also, men can be cute and goofy and friendly. Cute, goofy, and friendly doesn't necessarily have to imply feminine.

As well, I'd like to point out "interesting" is a completely opinionated word. What defines interesting for one person may be boring for another. For example, I might think that Haruka is a very interesting character, but someone else may think that she is the most boring character in the series.


Last edited by dye882003 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:35 am

Ah, thank you, Zhang. That's why I love you ;D

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:06 am

dye882003 wrote:Over the course the series, she opens up to the idea of depending on other people (like Mai), but that doesn't mean she loses her independence.


You lost me. Natsuki loses independence (i.e. becomes dependent) while not losing independence?


As well, I'd like to point out "interesting" is a completely opinionated word. What defines interesting for one person may be boring for another. For example, I might think that Haruka is a very interesting character, but someone else may think that she is the most boring character in the series.
Granted, "interesting" wasn't the best word I could have used. I was trying to say something along the lines of "Robbing her of her strength takes away what makes her strong," but that would have just sounded weird.

The way I see it, Natsuki's character is only damaged through the course of the series. By going the ShizNat route, she 1) allegedly learns to care for people when she actually already knew how to do that and was just more subtle about it (see: trying to keep Mai out of the HiME conspiracy; transferring Akane to a more friendly doctor) and 2) does so while coming out looking like a weak, submissive Stockholm Syndrome patient who mistakes her own post-rape mental trauma as a form of love. It completely neuters a powerful female character of her identity and leaves her as essentially a moeblob caricature of herself.

When people say "The old Natsuki never would have done what Natsuki does in episode 25!", I only die a little inside, shake my head, and go "Yeah, because the old Natsuki probably would have had the sense to put a bullet between Shizuru's eyes the moment she started twitching and would have indisputably prevented a whole lot of other suffering" under my breath.

But that's just me.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by denerop on Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:44 am

i totally agree with abicion, (i almost called you akane, dunno ^^) i liked Natsuki more at the beginning of the series, later she was nice, sure, but i didn't really like her. (never liked shizuru though. (alyssa and miyu forever))
but well, that's my opinion. i found her kinda interesting in otome, but i didn't like otome that much anyway. (exept for some parts) and well, Natsuki might have that past thing, but also that is a matter of opinion. The makers of the series could have choosen to work more on someone elses past, but they choose natsuki. Natsuki's past it though, i give you that, and it did a lot to her. But there are other HiME's with though pasts, and they could stand strong too. i think '^^

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by ookamidesu on Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:04 am

Abicion wrote:
You lost me. Natsuki loses independence (i.e. becomes dependent) while not losing independence?

Ah, I apologize if my wording was a bit odd. The way I see it, a person can learn to rely on others without losing a sense of themselves. Basically, you can learn to trust and rely on other people, while remaining as a strong and independent person. So, it's like saying while I trust and rely on my girlfriend for support, that doesn't mean I am not an independent woman. It doesn't mean that once I decide to let someone in, that I lose my own person and cannot survive on my own. Does that make sense?

Abicion wrote:
2) does so while coming out looking like a weak, submissive Stockholm Syndrome patient who mistakes her own post-rape mental trauma as a form of love. It completely neuters a powerful female character of her identity and leaves her as essentially a moeblob caricature of herself.

When people say "The old Natsuki never would have done what Natsuki does in episode 25!", I only die a little inside, shake my head, and go "Yeah, because the old Natsuki probably would have had the sense to put a bullet between Shizuru's eyes the moment she started twitching and would have indisputably prevented a whole lot of other suffering" under my breath.

Ah! But that's all part of human nature, isn't it? You also have to understand that in a time when NO ONE else was there for Natsuki, Shizuru stepped into her life. That kind of makes Shizuru Natsuki's weak point. Shizuru has always been there for her, through thick and thin. So quite honestly, I don't think that Natsuki's attitude towards Shizuru would have changed all that much, regardless of her growth throughout the series. That is to say, the old Natsuki ALREADY trusted Shizuru and that trust has been constant throughout the series.

Until, of course, that incident.

While I understand that many people may think it's as simple as 1-2-3 for Natsuki to just summon her element and shoot Shizuru, we have to first remember that Natsuki (at that time) was unable to summon her element and CHILD due to some information she received about her mother. So one, Natsuki couldn't just put a bullet between Shizuru's eyes.
Two, Natsuki has just received another shock, taking another blow to her heart with the new information about Shizuru. Her mind is probably reeling so fast that she's only acting on impulse.

In my opinion, the fact that she forgave Shizuru does not make her weak or submissive. I personally think that it makes her strong. Because forgiving is a task much much harder than the "YOU LOST MY TRUST AND BETRAYED ME!! DIE BITCH, DIE!" route.

So many people see a typical "powerful" female character as someone all cool-like, with a strong resolve. But even powerful characters have their ups and downs, their doubts, their troubles that they have to overcome. To me, what makes them truly powerful is not what they do when they have power. It's what they do with they have NO power and NO control.

The fact that you see Natsuki through her struggles makes her that much more of a strong character to me when you see her killing Shizuru in the end. And not out of hate, but simply because she feels that's how things should end. She was strong in her stance and strong in what she believes in.

I do admit that old Natsuki, who was filled with hate and vengeance, was an interesting character. But I don't see how she became weak the moment her character developed into someone who loves and cares and forgives.


denerop wrote:
Natsuki might have that past thing, but also that is a matter of opinion. The makers of the series could have choosen to work more on someone elses past, but they choose natsuki. Natsuki's past it though, i give you that, and it did a lot to her. But there are other HiME's with though pasts, and they could stand strong too. i think '^^

I agree den-den! I think Akira's past would have been an interesting one. I mean, come on! Crossdressing ninja! That's gotta be interesting. XD

Wows... long post is long XD


Last edited by dye882003 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:44 pm

Zhang. Marry me, because everything you said is everything I couldn't think of to write.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by ookamidesu on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:49 pm

Hollowed-Words wrote:Zhang. Marry me, because everything you said is everything I couldn't think of to write.

Lol. So very romantic of you, Kruger. But I shall accept your marriage proposal. Now, tell me what size ring I need to get for the engagement and wedding band. :D

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:50 pm

dye882003 wrote:
Hollowed-Words wrote:Zhang. Marry me, because everything you said is everything I couldn't think of to write.

Lol. So very romantic of you, Kruger. But I shall accept your marriage proposal. Now, tell me what size ring I need to get for the engagement and wedding band. :D

I believe it's a five. I would like sterling silver, please.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Kara on Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:18 pm

So basically you enjoy seeing strong, independent, Ellen Ripley-like female characters become completely demasculinized and robbed of everything that makes their character interesting.

I actually thought she was more interesting once she got her little puberty-like-change. I mean, whoo, you're a loner, awesome, that's gay and over-used. But of course, manly women I guess can suit some's fancy, eh?

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:31 pm

dye882003 wrote:Ah! But that's all part of human nature, isn't it? You also have to understand that in a time when NO ONE else was there for Natsuki, Shizuru stepped into her life. That kind of makes Shizuru Natsuki's weak point. Shizuru has always been there for her, through thick and thin.
Actually, no. Shizuru wasn't always there for Natsuki.

Here's where I sooo don't buy HiME Shizuru legitimately caring for anyone but herself. The anime proposes that she's so concerned for Natsuki's safety, so desperate to make sure Natsuki doesn't get hurt, that the vague possibility of someone attacking Natsuki makes Shizuru become outright delusional and invent threats to Natsuki's life where they don't exist. Cue Shizuru murdering Haruka after losing a verbal debate, when Yukino has clearly already decided Nagi can go screw himself and has no interest in participating in the festival.

And don't tell me that was out of Shizuru's control and Obsidian Lord magically made her do that, because he didn't.

Now, that being said, where was Shizuru during the Searrs arc? Where was she with her dead eyes blankly going "Kiyohime..." when Alyssa was actually threatening Natsuki's life and pointing an interplanetary gun at her head? Shizuru was nowhere to be seen then because her relationship with Natsuki has no real depth and the rape scene was a purely impulsive choice Shizuru made to make herself feel better.

While I understand that many people may think it's as simple as 1-2-3 for Natsuki to just summon her element and shoot Shizuru, we have to first remember that Natsuki (at that time) was unable to summon her element and CHILD due to some information she received about her mother. So one, Natsuki couldn't just put a bullet between Shizuru's eyes.
Had the writing not been blatantly biased in ShizNat's favor, it actually would have been about that easy. Here's why I think that:

Natsuki loses her powers after finding out her mother, her then-VIP, essentially whored her to science and hated her. Ignoring how, according to the anime's internal logic, Natsuki actually never should have had powers to lose in the first place because the alleged only person she cared about was already dead, okay. For argument's sake, I'll roll with this.

The pivotal scene in the series where we're informed Natsuki no longer has her powers is when Shizuru sends Kiyohime to attack Yukino and Haruka. Natsuki's powers fart out while she's trying to save Haruka's life. The point this scene is conveying is that there's no one Natsuki cares about about protecting when she's trying to protect Yukino and Haruka from Shizuru.

That. makes. no. sense.

Yeah. The only thing that really prevents Natsuki from stopping Shizuru almost instantly is her powers failing for what amounts to no reason whatsoever.

The fact that you see Natsuki through her struggles makes her that much more of a strong character to me when you see her killing Shizuru in the end. And not out of hate, but simply because she feels that's how things should end. She was strong in her stance and strong in what she believes in.
"Because she feels that's how things should end"? That's the quality of a character who has lost their own will and completely submits to fate. That's not how someone who has the strength to fight for themselves and other people acts.

I do admit that old Natsuki, who was filled with hate and vengeance, was an interesting character. But I don't see how she became weak the moment her character developed into someone who loves and cares and forgives.
The problem is I don't think Natsuki was ever the character you're describing at the beginning of the series. Subtle compassion and a complete absence of compassion are two different things.


Last edited by Abicion on Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:06 am; edited 5 times in total

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Kino karutta-chan on Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:29 pm

Abicion wrote:
dye882003 wrote:Ah! But that's all part of human nature, isn't it? You also have to understand that in a time when NO ONE else was there for Natsuki, Shizuru stepped into her life. That kind of makes Shizuru Natsuki's weak point. Shizuru has always been there for her, through thick and thin.
Actually, no. Shizuru wasn't always there for Natsuki.

Here's where I sooo don't buy HiME Shizuru legitimately caring for anyone but herself. The anime proposes that she's so concerned for Natsuki's safety, so desperate to make sure Natsuki doesn't get hurt, that the vague possibility of someone attacking Natsuki makes Shizuru become outright delusional and invent threats to Natsuki's life where they don't exist.
And that's actually some points for me, that she IS there for Natsuki. Not in the way you should be for a friend (friend as in Natsuki's opininion) and yes, maybe not, too for a lover either. I am just thinking that Shizuru at this point was thinking, or more believing that she did the right thing to protect Natsuki, whatever.

Abicion wrote:Now, that being said, where was Shizuru during the Searrs arc? Where was she with her dead eyes blankly going "Kiyohime..." when Alyssa was actually threatening Natsuki's life and pointing an interplanetary gun at her head? Shizuru was nowhere to be seen...
I think you forget the point here, that Shizuru didn't want that Natsuki know that she is a HiME, to not involve to much with her (see epi 20 or 21 (??)), which get's me back to the "she does care about Natsuki"-part, huh?? I am pretty sure, that you remember that Shizuru DID protect Natsuki from Kagu in epi 19 (?? (damn my memory right now)), without showing herself. So if you watch the part, where she protects Natsuki (again) from Nao (the first time) you get to know what I was trying to say with the involving-part (or not ;P).

Abicion wrote:The pivotal scene in the series where we're informed Natsuki no longer has her powers is when Shizuru sends Kiyohime to attack Yukino and Haruka. Natsuki's powers fart out while she's trying to save Haruka's life. The point this scene is conveying is that there's no one Natsuki cares about about protecting when she's trying to protect Yukino and Haruka from Shizuru.

That. makes. no. sense.
Okay, you got me there. That really makes no sense O_o But I will just ignore it X)

bleh, off-topic x_x

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:26 am

Kino karutta-chan wrote:And that's actually some points for me, that she IS there for Natsuki. Not in the way you should be for a friend (friend as in Natsuki's opininion) and yes, maybe not, too for a lover either. I am just thinking that Shizuru at this point was thinking, or more believing that she did the right thing to protect Natsuki, whatever.
The point I was trying to make is that, yes, while that analysis fits Shizuru when the Festival arc starts (ignoring the "I'll make Natsuki my slave" part), it doesn't fit her for over half of the series before that. Searrs Arc Shizuru didn't give a crap about Natsuki and was perfectly content being a tea-dispensing background prop. That's the equivalent of me going "Yeah, I'm cool with you shooting my friend Bob in the face, but slash his tires and well I'll just have to go apeshit to the point of randomly attacking people who have nothing to do with the problem."

The entire setup for what Shizuru is supposed to be in the Festival arc makes no sense in the overall context of the show and comes off really fake and forced to me. The ShizNat subplot insists on a point it doesn't have and I can't take it seriously.

I think you forget the point here, that Shizuru didn't want that Natsuki know that she is a HiME, to not involve to much with her (see epi 20 or 21 (??)), which get's me back to the "she does care about Natsuki"-part, huh?? I am pretty sure, that you remember that Shizuru DID protect Natsuki from Kagu in epi 19 (?? (damn my memory right now)), without showing herself. So if you watch the part, where she protects Natsuki (again) from Nao (the first time) you get to know what I was trying to say with the involving-part (or not ;P).
And I have to fall right back on the question of: Where was Shizuru during the Searrs arc if she cared so much? Especially when, as you even stated, Shizuru has ways of attacking Natsuki's enemies without revealing herself as a HiME if that was the only thing stopping her?

The only answer I can draw is Shizuru's rampage in the anime is entirely dependent on the writers randomly deciding they wanted to make her look cooler than everyone else, and it's not based on any sort of logical catalyst or consistent direction.

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Analyzing Natsuki

Post by sarcastic-dog on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:27 am

The problem is ...

When Natsuki got to know about what her mother did, she went totally blank. That far I have to agree on that Abicion.
However I'm not sure if it was ever clarified that the VIP can be dead...or has to be alive. Clearance on that would be helpful.

I don't know how it was exactly meant to look in the episode where Haruka was attacked. (again I have to say Sunrise should think things through plotwise...) but my guess would be.
Shock-stupor.
Would you jump the gun and run in front of someone, who appearently isn't in their right mind at the moment and kills people right in front of your eyes. I guess not.

In my opinion Natsuki was to shocked to apprehend what was going on, to properly react (note her reaction to Smith) I know moments like this ...and at such times your unable to do anything.

She regained her senses afterwards and if you think about it her intentions after that were clear.
I wouldn't say that she did that because she thought this is how it should be...I guess there was a lot more guilt in her actions than one could see.
She saw what Shizuru would do for her if she let her...I guess she even could understand that to an extent she was the one who pushed her over the edge and so she said "I'm partial responsible for that problem...so I will take care of it. "
In the end there was a lot of guilt on her part (at least in my opinion) but also, she did what she did out of love. Akane was the best example for what would happen if they had put Shizuru in an asylum.
Regarding the other she knew that they were far to busy with themselves and so she took matters in her own hands.

and about Shizuru and the SEARRS conflict. If you look closely at the series you can see that she wasn't really able to leave the council room without blowing her cover. She knew what was going on but at that moment she was sane enough to know that a violent attack would bring only more damage and probably endanger her VIP.

In the end there are many different ways to interpret and justify the actions of those two. I think if there had been more of a backstory on Shizuru...and how she was really related to Natsuki in the end, the whole situation would look different in many eyes.
Everybody should make their own mind about them. We're just swapping opinions. ^^


That would be a good idea Hollowed. ^^

....
...
and my ideal Natsuki would be a mix between Kruger and Kuga I guess.
Kruger had a lot more responsibility while Kuga had the backstory and the feeling for it. (can't express myself better at the moment...late work sucks...)

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Kara on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:23 pm

Maybe, Natsuki's very important person wasn't EVER her mom, maybe it had been Shizuru from the begining, but Natsuki just THOUGHT it was her mom. I mean, Mai did nearly the same thing, she kept saying that Takumi was her important person when it was more Tate....(I think, unless you count the time she actually accepted her power to save Takumi).

But maybe, Natsuki kept thinking, "Oh, well my mom's the most important for me, so that must be my important person." But ya gotta think, it was Shizuru who was there, like, always. So maybe when Natsuki found out her mom tried to sell her, she was like, "WTF. Why do I love this bitch? She can't be my important person." So then she was confused about who it was. Theeeeen, when Nao captured her, it was only when Natsuki had that great little flashback and then she was like, "OH. DUH! It must be Shizuru! She hasn't tried to sell me!" And then Voila! She completely realized it and it made her CHiLD huge.

Or, maybe Shizuru was NEVER her important person. Maybe she was pissed that Shizuru would go and kill all the people she wanted to kill, so she was like, "Oh man, I gotta kill this lunatic." So she realized her love for her dead mother so much more, leading her to having a giant monster, and then, with ALL HER WILL POWER, she switched Shizuru to her important person and they both dissapeared.

Truely, that last one was full of logical flaws, but...I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:25 pm

Kara wrote:"OH. DUH! It must be Shizuru! She hasn't tried to sell me!"

Carebear, I love you XD

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Kara on Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:29 pm

Carebear, I love you XD


I know, I'm hard not to love :)

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:30 pm

sarcastic-dog wrote:However I'm not sure if it was ever clarified that the VIP can be dead...or has to be alive. Clearance on that would be helpful.
The VIP has to be alive.



And even without Nagi's explanation, just think about the paradoxes involved with HiME using dead VIPs for a minute. The very premise of being a HiME is you're desperately protecting the life of the person you care about the most, and all your powers are fueled by the emotional connection you have with that person. When you're defeated, that person dies, you lose your powers as a result, and you become a braindead zombie.

The moment you introduce a character with a dead VIP, the entire system collapses on itself. If everyone conformed to the Natsuki Situation, then HiME would never lose their powers because nobody suddenly stops caring about their VIP the moment their VIP dies. It's complete nonsense.


sarcastic-dog wrote:She saw what Shizuru would do for her if she let her...I guess she even could understand that to an extent she was the one who pushed her over the edge and so she said "I'm partial responsible for that problem...so I will take care of it. "
What you're saying amounts to Natsuki realized she was at least partially responsible for allowing Shizuru to be a serial killer and ruin other peoples' lives, and then effectively killed herself to escape the guilt.

That doesn't portray Natsuki as anything but a complete coward, in my opinion.


sarcastic-dog wrote:Would you jump the gun and run in front of someone, who appearently isn't in their right mind at the moment and kills people right in front of your eyes. I guess not.
Natsuki would. Prior to Shizuru's convenient breakdown, Natsuki "jumped the gun" and dealt with renegade Orphans and insane Searrs grunts on a daily basis.


sarcastic-dog wrote:and about Shizuru and the SEARRS conflict. If you look closely at the series you can see that she wasn't really able to leave the council room without blowing her cover. She knew what was going on but at that moment she was sane enough to know that a violent attack would bring only more damage and probably endanger her VIP.
This still leaves a major problem. Why didn't Shizuru go insane when Natsuki's life was actually at risk, if that was always supposed to be premise of Shizuru's character?


Kara wrote:Maybe, Natsuki's very important person wasn't EVER her mom, maybe it had been Shizuru from the begining, but Natsuki just THOUGHT it was her mom. I mean, Mai did nearly the same thing, she kept saying that Takumi was her important person when it was more Tate....(I think, unless you count the time she actually accepted her power to save Takumi).
Mai's powers were active when she only knew of Yuichi as some guy on the same boat as her. Given Natsuki's training, she was probably using her powers long before even meeting Shizuru.


Kara wrote:"OH. DUH! It must be Shizuru! She hasn't tried to sell me!"




That's just because Shizuru wasn't given enough time to try.


Kara wrote:So she realized her love for her dead mother so much more, leading her to having a giant monster, and then, with ALL HER WILL POWER, she switched Shizuru to her important person and they both dissapeared.
That is so much bullcrap.

I'm sorry, but it's true. If the VIP is determined simply by whose life the HiME voluntarily *thinks* is most important to them and isn't controlled by a deeper subconscious connection, why wasn't Akane the one who died in episode 8? Why can HiME simply declare who their VIP is on the fly? And if they could, why didn't a single one of them think of saying Nagi / OL was their VIP and just end the entire Festival by self-destructing their Child? That would have actually helped.


Kara wrote:Truely, that last one was full of logical flaws, but...I'm just trying to think outside the box here.
I see, but there's a difference between extrapolating on what the show tells you and just ignoring all semblance of logic within the story.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Kara on Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:54 pm


What you're saying amounts to Natsuki realized she was at least partially responsible for allowing Shizuru to be a serial killer and ruin other peoples' lives, and then effectively killed herself to escape the guilt.

That doesn't portray Natsuki as anything but a complete coward, in my opinion.


But that's exactly what Natsuki was. I mean, she did that whole, "My mom's dead, so now I'm not going to trust or even try to get some counseling, I think I'll just sit around and reject everyone and anyone who thinks they can talk to me." She was always a coward to me.



That's just because Shizuru wasn't given enough time to try.

LOL. Don't worry, give them a couple years when they're in so much debt for property damage. Shizuru will be sellin' some Natsuki all up on the black market for some tea money.

That is so much bullcrap.

That's because...it was SUPPOSED to be bullcrap. lol

If the VIP is determined simply by whose life the HiME *thinks* is most important to them and isn't controlled by a deeper subconscious connection, why wasn't Akane the one who died in episode 8?

However if we really wanted to go that route, Akane wasn't aware she was fighting to protect her special person, Natsuki was well aware. So that wasn't a very fair comparision.



I see, but there's a difference between extrapolating on what the show tells you and just ignoring all semblance of logic within the story.

Haha, there was no semblance of logic within the story, the whole thing was a giant plothole!

The only somewhat-non-bubuzuke-theory I could think of was that Natsuki was her own special person? I mean, her dead mom couldn't be it, she's dead, and as you pointed out, dead people can't be the important people. It wasn't Shizuru (for the first half, anyway) because, as you pointed out, Natsuki had probably been trained before that. Though, I'm trying to think, in Natsuki's prelude, had she met Shizuru yet?? I think there was something about that in there...But anyway, maybe Natsuki was just a narrcisist like me. Huh. I guess we'll never know.


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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by sarcastic-dog on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:27 am


Personally I think it's useless to put the blame on a character in a series where no one is really innocent.

So far we have established that these two lack a backstory...if you can assemble it all together maybe than it will look right.
I just think that Sunrise assembles the plots when they get along with the series, hence the holes in the fabric.

and Kara: this is also a possiblity. A narcisst ...never thought about that. 0_o

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:03 pm

sarcastic-dog wrote:Personally I think it's useless to put the blame on a character in a series where no one is really innocent.
Okay, wait. How do Shiho, Yukariko, Mikoto, Mashiro, and ShizNat count as everyone? Even though one of the themes of the series is everyone acting like collective bumbling morons and buying the advice of Nagi--who they know has already been lying to them to manipulate them for the entire series--for no real reason beyond forcibly generating drama, it's still pretty easy to differentiate the characters who took the idiocy to the next level and killed people as a result.

And even including Mikoto on that list is a stretch, considering she literally had no control over her own actions.

And why is Mashiro even part of that list? She knows she can stop the Festival in its tracks at any point and just tell everyone to blow up the giant red target. That's her whole purpose for being there. It's literally her entire plan. ARRRRGH.

I feel like that one thing Spoony said in his Highlander: The Source review right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, while the way the anime handles the Festival arc only damages all parties involved, only a few actually come out as an absolute wreck.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Abicion on Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:32 am

dye882003 wrote:
Abicion wrote:
Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Abicion wrote:
Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Whether or not the SEARRS Foundation soldiers were killed during the preemptive strike in Ep. 15, Natsuki made a vow to make them pay and she isn't the type to hold back.
Even if she did...

1. By the time you get to episode 15, Alyssa had unveiled her Death Star, blew up a major bridge, invaded the academy, and held the student body hostage. It's kind of hard to call retaliating against that "preemptive."

2. Natsuki was being directly manipulated by Mashiro to get Searrs out of the way so the HiME Festival could get back on schedule when she did it.
At that point, Searrs was the major threat. The name stopped Natsuki in her tracks when Midori tossed it out to ensure a happy karaoke jam. With or without Mashiro influence, anything in Natsuki's way is considered dead or retired. That's just the kind of person she was.
If that was the case, then why did Natsuki wait until Searrs was sitting on the academy and Mashiro briefed her on what they supposedly wanted before doing anything about it? Why didn't she just make a sudden, The Real Folk Blues-esque one woman assault on the Searrs complex at the first possible moment if it was really that imperative to her?

Because she's not stupid.
Generally speaking, yes, but Luu was suggesting that Natsuki is so impulsive and filled with so much seething hatred of Searrs that she was predisposed to blindly slaughter anyone related to the company's name regardless of who helped her or the moral implications involved. The problem with this concept, as my counterexample was trying to point out, is it's a complete exaggeration of Natsuki's character.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by sarcastic-dog on Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:41 am


I think I'm putting myself out of this discussion again.
Not because I have fear of being overwhelmed dor making something stupid. I just think I made my opinion known and I let it stand as it is.

Of course I will follow the discussion further but I guess I will not participate in it so far.

Abicion you have a few good points but I guess this could go on for ever and ever.
Thank you all for discussing this with me ^^

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Lerena on Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:04 pm

I don't really know how to argue against Abicion's points, because I am horrible at debates. She has a lot of good points, and I can't really reply to them with pure logic, just pure stupidity. Before we begin, there's no being entirely logical when we're limited in the information we have on Shizuru. Yes, I'm making a bunch of unfounded suggestions, but we're not given much information (or really any) on why Shizuru didn't save Natsuki when the Searrs put her life in danger.

The entire basis seems to have been, for awhile, that Shizuru never cared for Natsuki. If I TRULY had to guess, Shizuru was putting her trust in the other Hime. At this point, she's probably not that in love with Natsuki yet, but upon realizing that her life was really put in danger she may have literally lost it later on in the series.

If we're going to stick with this argument, it seems like Shizuru's feelings didn't fully manifest until the beginning of the carnival, which would be one reason for the problem prior to the festival when Natsuki's life truly was in danger. Perhaps, then, she went insane from Natsuki's exposure to near death? Natsuki could have told her about it off-camera, triggering a sense of guilt that she doesn't exactly show responsibly? I'm only guessing, but depending on those bit of episodes, a lot could have been going on through her mind.

We're not given much information on what Shizuru has been through, so there could be more to Shizuru than we got to see. You're right that she wasn't there to protect Natsuki when her life was really threatened, and honestly, she could have been confused about whether she really cares about Natsuki, or she just wants to keep her position. As a part of the Student Council, a real life situation wouldn't permit her to even step a little out of sight from the other members.

A few questions are probably running through your mind, and I don't have the psychic ability to predict how to answer them. Instead of trying to counter your argument before I know what it is, I suppose I'll just have to take the hit when it comes.

My final line of argument--to attempt making more sense--is simply the fact that you can't do what you want to do in every situation. Sometimes you have to show some self-restraint, and in doing so that could mean it all eventually comes out in an explosion of rage and terror. In that respect, she could have had time to let out all her emotion simply BECAUSE of everything going on. Had everything remained at ease, I'm sure Shizuru wouldn't have lost her marbles. To be more clear, when everything is out of whack, it's hard to control yourself, and if something happened recently that you couldn't control that probably means you're going to lose it as well.

Shizuru is overall a very self-restrained person. With everything going on, she may have been reminded of her lack of control in respect to being able to save Natsuki. If her feelings didn't quite develop that far until the start of the festival, then I can't really argue this point. Let me just say that Shizuru is also human, and doesn't have infinite capacity to tolerate her own emotions.

There's also the possibility that Shizuru is just in lust with Natsuki and never really loved her to begin with. I'm really just offering suggestions, but since it's a response to previous commentary, I suppose I can say I'm debating very poorly.

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Re: Analyzing Natsuki

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:40 pm

So what you're saying is, in the beginning, is that Shizuru was secretive and holding back her love for Natsuki during the Orphan arc. Only to realize how important Natsuki is to her when the announcement of the Carnival spread like wildfire.

You're right about something, she is human and that is literally lost it. Even the best of us become demons when push to that point.

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