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What makes ShizNat so attractive??

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What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Kino karutta-chan on Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:24 pm

(I still don't like it to write "ShizNat")
There are so many other great shoujo ai / yuri couples, but there are so many, many people, who like / love Shizuru and Natsuki the most.
What to you think is the reason for this??

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:29 pm

I have no idea to be honest. Are ShizNat that popular where they dominate yuri couple fandom? Whatever the case may be, I can only mention why I enjoy Shizuru and Natsuki the most.

Why ShizNat

^ That says it all. Their whole story from the Mai-HiME anime is what made me love these two characters back in 2006 and had me create blueprints for a website (ShizNat Webs, duh.) back in March. It's not necessarily how beautiful they look together (though it helps), it's because of the hardships they battled and survived through. My favorite yuri couples always involve two individuals who are not superficial, generally good people who deserve each others love and care.

The reason why Shizuru and Natsuki are so popular may stem towards their ages. About 90% of the people I know who're into yuri are in their teens-early 20s. Young lesbian readers/viewers who are just getting out into the world relate to younger Shizuru Fujino and Natsuki Kuga. In comparison to couples like Hachiru (Haruka Tenoh and Michiru Kaioh) from Sailor Moon, who are more like adults than young girls.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Ice Silver Crystal on Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:56 pm

Da, Luu! You see them a different way than most fans. I just don't like Shizuru and Natsuki as a couple. They're so overrated to the point where the other characters are cast out. Couplings should be more friendship based for me to advance on. Shizuru is always portrayed as the creepy stalker it turns me off to her. Tokiha-san is much better replacement for Fujino-san.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:12 am

Ice Silver Crystal wrote:Shizuru is always portrayed as the creepy stalker it turns me off to her.

It shouldn't. Remember, she was just a girl in love who's feelings were darkened and magnified ten-fold by Reito. There is an uneasy feeling for Shizuru not apologizing for taking the lives of the District One people, but as long as she apologized to the person she hurt most, Natsuki, that's all that matter to me.

Guess what? She did. ^^

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Ice Silver Crystal on Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:27 am

xD I almost feel sorry for Fujino-san when you talk about her. Nobody else can defend her properly, da. :/ I got attacked on another forum for saying I didn't like her.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by SpiderNeKoHiME on Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:26 pm

they're sexy lesbians? : D
i'm beginning to like the naonat ship more lately :/


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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by AtlantisLux on Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:50 pm

I like them a lot in Mai Otome, where I think they are close to perfection as a couple. They love and support each others and they do just *everything* to be reunited. Also, their love in each other never falter, no matter what happens. It's impressive.

In Hime... uhm... their battle was one of the most emotional, but for some reasons I don't like them as a couple there. Maybe they could get close to each other after some years, but the idea of Natsuki to be with Shizuru just after the events of the series doesn't appeal to me.
Yes, I love too much the idea of Natsuki who, finally free from her past, leaves on her Ducati that cursed school ^^


(NatNao... delicious thought Razz)

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Guest on Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:45 pm

Ehh, i suppose ill try... (and fail) to explain some of the reasons i like Shiznat.
I can relate to the characters better ,
Shizuru for example portrays somewhat of a mask to others
haveing to hide her feelings to make others belive she is the flawless, tea-drinking student council president while underneath she is deeply in love with a girl who cant seem to notice her, which would make anyone unstable after a while, haveing to struggle to hide her feelings from the world , who she is , it can be hard.
Natsuki is a character who, shows how strong you can be, and is one who doesnt give up as easily though she trys to run, or in this case drive away from her past at one point, i can relate to her because she has to struggle so much to keep herself from breaking, to keep herself from the horrible things that have happened in her life, and she is so busy trying to keep up her biker apperance that she doesnt notice what is in front of her eyes , and it scares her

they are more relatable for those who know what its like to be in these struggles

oh and if anyone have noticed
but the wolf and the snake
which would be in this case fitting
are sometimes veiwed as enemys
when they appear together
its usally tangled in a battle
mortal enemys to one another
it really represents their struggles together
the wolf is veiwed as a free spirit
and the snake is a symbol, not of evil, which
is a common misconseption
but of rebirth.

oh and just cuz i feel like makeing you guys read more
in mythology, both fenrir, which is the giant wolf ,
and Jörmungand which is the snake that circles in under the earth
were born to the same father >.> just a random bit of info Razz
just cuz it had to be boreing to read all that Razz

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:04 am

AtlantisLux wrote:Yes, I love too much the idea of Natsuki who, finally free from her past, leaves on her Ducati that cursed school ^^

Hmm, Natsuki riding her Ducati towards the sunset would of made a bad ass ending for her.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by AtlantisLux on Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:28 pm

Yes! That would have been my ideal ending <3

And, for the future, once I read a fanfic when they meet again years later, as adult women, and they finally realize it's time to put the past behind their shoulders, and to forgive what they've done to each other under the influence of the Obsidian Lord. Yes, a fantastic ending ^^

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:31 pm

AtlantisLux wrote:And, for the future, once I read a fanfic when they meet again years later, as adult women, and they finally realize it's time to put the past behind their shoulders, and to forgive what they've done to each other under the influence of the Obsidian Lord. Yes, a fantastic ending ^^

I see now. The whole forgiving Shizuru thing is a more lengthy process for you personally. Natsuki did forgive Shizuru rather quickly, even though I feel she had enough time to think it over. For story reasons, your idea could work effectively. In reality, these things take years sometimes.

Your comment reminded me of another ShizuNatsu thread where I'd like your opinion, please <3:

Put yourself in ShizNat's shoes (Mai-HiME Episode 22-23)

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by AtlantisLux on Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:07 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
I see now. The whole forgiving Shizuru thing is a more lengthy process for you personally. Natsuki did forgive Shizuru rather quickly, even though I feel she had enough time to think it over. For story reasons, your idea could work effectively. In reality, these things take years sometimes.

Exactly! Personally I like the last episode, all the Hime returning to be the -more or less- great friends they were before, but if I think at a more realistic approach to it then... well, it's impossible that they put aside everything that quickly.
And this goes for Shizuru and Natsuki but also for all the other girls and their most precious people.


Your comment reminded me of another ShizuNatsu thread where I'd like your opinion, please <3:

Put yourself in ShizNat's shoes (Mai-HiME Episode 22-23)

Wow, that's interesting. I'll get a look at it :)

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Kara on Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:02 am

'CAUSE.


It's like their straight...but their not. Natsuki's LIKE a man in most aspects, but she's a girl! And then Shizuru's just a BAMF. And together they created a huuuuuuge following...


Also because their ending was left so open to debate and that's what fans love. That means you could go either way, you could keep them as friends or as lovers...or as neither, if you so choose. That's my take anyway.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:59 pm

AtlantisLux wrote:Exactly! Personally I like the last episode, all the Hime returning to be the -more or less- great friends they were before, but if I think at a more realistic approach to it then... well, it's impossible that they put aside everything that quickly.
And this goes for Shizuru and Natsuki but also for all the other girls and their most precious people.

The anime did require more substance in that area. For a 26 episode series, SUNRISE had to rush the plot along. Not really an excuse huh? lol

Just another reason people want to see an extension of the Mai-HiME anime to see these new friendships and couple blossom or fail. Mai-HiME does have the reality factor, perhaps Shizuru and Natsuki's relationship/friendship doesn't last too long. Scary thought for most fans, I know. :shock:

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by AtlantisLux on Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:53 pm

Ahah, no, you provide a good excuse, really ^^
Of course, that episode is very symbolic, as it's like the ending of the most typical fairy tails where they lived happily ever after. Than we know that in reality the Prince Charming would have grown tired of Cinderella, and vice-versa, but that's another story XD

Uhm... but, in Shizuru and Natsuki case I'm quite positive they would forge a rather strong relationship. If how they are in Mai Otome -so more mature- is of any indication, I think that they should become an ideal couple. Or strong friends! I won't be the one to say that friendship is less important than romance :)

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:53 pm

AtlantisLux wrote:Uhm... but, in Shizuru and Natsuki case I'm quite positive they would forge a rather strong relationship. If how they are in Mai Otome -so more mature- is of any indication, I think that they should become an ideal couple. Or strong friends! I won't be the one to say that friendship is less important than romance :)

Friends with benefits. ^_~

Yeah, Mai-Otome's ShizuNatsu represented the established and grown up pair that we didn't get to see after episode 26 of HiME. Hmm, is friendship more important than romance? Depends on the situation. Wink

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Abicion on Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:47 pm

GAP wrote:I had only been on this foruim for a day but I gotta, why do you people like this pairing so much?
Because Sunrise intentionally engineered it to be the "cool" pairing regardless of how it makes no sense and ignores all logic of the series, and anime fans love superficial things.

That's my best guess.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:41 pm

First thing, thanks for locking the duplicate thread Kino-chan! ;p

GAP wrote:I had only been on this foruim for a day but I gotta, why do you people like this pairing so much?

Aside from Natsuki having the most detailed back story and Shizuru becoming one of the most iconic homosexual anime characters? Well, together they're a pair that bring such a strong presentation. Yes, they're are a tad overrated, but for the right reasons. Main reason I enjoy them so much is because they're good friends who overcame angst, deception and some asshole's little game. Nothing more simple than that.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Abicion on Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:11 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Aside from Natsuki having the most detailed back story
But that only explains the Nat part. The Shiz part doesn't really have that benefit, considering she spends over half of the show as a tea-drinking background prop.

and Shizuru becoming one of the most iconic homosexual anime characters?
Well, it's iconic in how damaging she is to proper yuri fiction. The ShizNat angle is disgustingly exploitative in how it basically takes over the show and attention whores itself, and it's insulting in how it represents lesbians as being either a) homicidal, possessive, conniving bitches who care about protecting their own self-proclaimed ownership of someone more than the actual person, or b) weak, indecisive shells of strong women who ultimately succeed at nothing but suicide.

It's iconic of everything progressive yuri storytelling shouldn't be. It's like calling Twilight feminist when the entire premise of Bella Swan is that she's a clingy, frail damsel who's completely dependent on the constant presence of at least one man to mentally function (be it Vampire Boy or Shirtless Wolf Guy) and instantly becomes manic depressive if her latest fling steps out for a walk for five minutes.

Well, together they're a pair that bring such a strong presentation.
By "strong," I'm assuming you mean "paper thin when compared to similar relationships that actually have a legitimate backstory and substantial development behind it, like Yukino and Haruka."

Yes, they're are a tad overrated
Absolutely. I agree.

but for the right reasons.


Not happening.

Main reason I enjoy them so much is because they're good friends who overcame angst, deception and some asshole's little game. Nothing more simple than that.
Now you're just making stuff up, Luu.

That sooo doesn't happen in the anime.

ShizNat overcomes absolutely nothing. Shizuru goes insane out of nowhere for no reason, Natsuki comes out looking like an idiot who mistakes her own post-rape trauma as misunderstood true love, and the two characters get played as complete tools and get themselves killed Just As Planned so Obsidian Lord can make his moves on Mai without interruption. They don't get over anything as characters in the natural sense. The only reason they clear any hurdles is because Mashiro swoops down in her God Machine and lifts ShizNat over them.

Ragin'.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Kara on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:26 pm

It's iconic of everything progressive yuri storytelling shouldn't be.

Maybe, people don't want to see what progressive yuri storytelling should be all the time, again and again and again and again. It's like eating candy all day and then your stomache craves real food.

I actually think they tried to take from reality with ShizNat, maybe trying to show the bad side of lesbian relationships. I mean, I don't know much about lesbian relationships, obviously, but I've seen enough to know that not all of them are sugary sweet and perfect. I actually had a friend who had a story disturbingly similar to ShizNat. (Just to be clear, this isn't why we're not friends anymore)

Her name is Emily and was in love with her best friend, Taylor. They had been friends for like, forever and they were really close. Well, Taylor is straight and she goes through boyfriends like she goes through outfits. Well, everytime something went wrong with her boyfriends, Taylor ran to her best friend for condolence, maybe she was using her because she knew Emily would listen or maybe she truly was just looking for a friend, whatever the case, Emily basically creeped on her. For example, one time, Emily was sleeping over at Taylor's and in the middle of the night, she got up to go to the bathroom and when she came back, instead of going back to bed, she stared at Taylor from the doorway for a good five minutes. I heard this from Taylor, exageration or not, it's still creepy. Anyway, at one point, Emily told Taylor how she felt, Taylor said she didn't feel the same way and just kinda put it to the side and continued their friendship. I guess she thought it would go away if she ignored it? Idk, but Emily kept on pressing, creeping, and basically clinged to Taylor. And Emily litterally talked about her allll the time. After awhile I wanted to gouge my ears off so I didn't have to listen to her. So, after a long time, I'm guessing Taylor got tired of the constant harrasment and told Emily to leave her alone and that she creeped her out. And that ended that.

There was no rape or giant explosions or killing of old ladies involved, but after Taylor told Emily she creeped her out, Emily was just angry all the time for no reason. She snapped at me several times for doing nothing.

Of course, this is only one example, but there's no doubt in my mind that situations like this happen all over. Maybe less extreme, maybe more extreme. I think Mai-HiME just made it more exagerated for anime's sake.


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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:25 pm

Kara wrote:I think Mai-HiME just made it more exagerated for anime's sake.

And anime is exaggerated enough as it is. Wink In short, Entertainment.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Abicion on Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:51 pm

Kara wrote:Maybe, people don't want to see what progressive yuri storytelling should be all the time, again and again and again and again. It's like eating candy all day and then your stomache craves real food.
I see where you're going with this, but the problem with this analogy is I wouldn't say I'm eating candy in the first place if it tastes like dog food.

I actually think they tried to take from reality with ShizNat, maybe trying to show the bad side of lesbian relationships. I mean, I don't know much about lesbian relationships, obviously, but I've seen enough to know that not all of them are sugary sweet and perfect.
Granted, but just because relationships often have problems doesn't mean you can pass off wanton rape and murder as parts of a perfectly healthy relationship. That's exactly what the HiME anime tries to do, and it just makes the story ridiculous for it.

I actually had a friend who had a story disturbingly similar to ShizNat. (Just to be clear, this isn't why we're not friends anymore)
Then doesn't that just further show why ShizNat doesn't work as a balanced relationship if you going to go the "They're trying to make it more realistic" route?

I think Mai-HiME just made it more exagerated for anime's sake.
And there's the problem in itself. If you're going to defend ShizNat by arguing it's wacky cartoony anime logic and it's not supposed to make sense, and you're just in it for the superficial animation and pretty colors, and you're totally cool with that, more power to you. That's a perfectly valid opinion to have.

But then please don't try and tell me there's more to it. Don't tell me ShizNat is supposed to a gritty deconstruction of how a lesbian relationship works in the real world when, on the same note, you go on to use the "well it's anime and you're not supposed to think about it" argument. Telling people not to think about it contradicts the entire claim that a subplot is really deep and has a lot of things to think about.

There's no depth to ShizNat. It makes no sense. The moment it tried to seriously say "Rape and serial murder just means I love you and don't know how to express myself," the entire thing was a joke. If you apply any sort of real world logic to it, it boils down to the story of how Shizuru suddenly goes crazy for no reason beyond generating shock value and getting more character poll votes, and her craziness turns Natsuki into a Stockholm Syndrome patient. And the sad part is it absolutely ruins characters that actually had genuine depth and could have went somewhere instead of having Shizuru effortlessly destroy them just to look cool. The entire subplot does nothing but reduce the second half of the series into mindless Final Destination-esque death porn.

On a side note, I like how my Guts meter always fluctuates when I go into ShizNat Hate Mode.


Last edited by Abicion on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:21 pm; edited 6 times in total

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Kara on Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:23 pm

I see where you're going with this, but the problem with this analogy is I wouldn't say I'm eating candy in the first place if it tastes like dog food.


Taste is very subjective, it seems.


Granted, but just because relationships often have problems doesn't mean you can pass off wanton rape and murder as parts of a perfectly healthy relationship. That's exactly what the HiME anime tries to do, and it just makes the story ridiculous for it.


It's anime, what're ya gonna do? That freaky dude raped the nun, and they have a great relationship. Apparently, Yukino stalks Haruka with her little plant thing. Mai HiME is FULL of fuckedd up relationships when you think about it. Actually, scratch that, ANIME is full of fuckedd up relationships in general. But, really, it's for entertainment purposes, if you're trying to learn about how to have a relationship from anime, then you really need to get out more.


Then doesn't that just further show why ShizNat doesn't work as a balanced relationship if you going to go the "They're trying to make it more realistic" route?

It does, I'm not saying ShizNat would work in real life. I am saying, in anime-world, where it's fairy-tale land, not real, CARTOON, they do work because that's what the fans wanted. Because that's what brings in the money, when you do what the fans want. There's no use arguing about this, because if you're trying to look at this from a real life standard, (which, you really can't because there is nothing real about a buncha teenage girls with magic powers and everyone's parents being dead or disabled and child services not stepping in, a school run by students to the point where, when the building's on fire, it's up to the students to direct everyone.) And that doesn't work because it's a cartoon.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by GAP on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:31 am

I guess I can understnad the appeal of Shiznat somewhat but why do yuri fans beleive that they are in love with each other? Natsuki accepted Shizurn's but she wasn't in love with Natsuki as some fans beleive.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

Post by Kara on Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:37 am

I guess I can understnad the appeal of Shiznat somewhat but why do yuri fans beleive that they are in love with each other? Natsuki accepted Shizurn's but she wasn't in love with Natsuki as some fans beleive..

I dunnoo. I agree Natsuki most likely didn't love her the same way Shizuru loved her (I mean, she said that) but the ending was left open and they seemed like best buddies again and then in Otome they were obviously a couple or at least friends with benefits. So all this speculation boils down to HiME-Verse-ShizNat.

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Re: What makes ShizNat so attractive??

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