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Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Yuri-hime on Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:22 am

SpiralDasher wrote:Even putting aside all of the controversial/moral claims and comparisons, another reason I don't like- no, that's too soft. Her kink creeps. me. the. fuck. out. And I rarely curse on forums unless I mean it. =3
*nods* Indeed

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Cheshire Kat on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Yuri-hime wrote:
Cheshire Kat wrote:
Yuri-hime wrote:
Cheshire Kat wrote:
Krystal of Nol wrote:

I totally agree with you! Besides Shizuru was misguided by an evil star! HiME

And Tomoe was being misguided by Shizuru with a false acclamation of love.
The two still can't be compared, as Shizuru would never try to murder someone with acid, just to try to get ahead. That right there is a pretty fucked up individual who would do that.

No, but Fujino did kill thousands of innocent workers from District One who did nothing to affect Natsuki's life.

How many people did Tomoe kill, again? I don't recall any.
I'm not excusing what she did, but Shizuru wasn't exactly in her right mind. Tomoe was quite lucid when she did everything she did. But let's just agree to disagree, because this is exactly why I don't like to get into debates anymore. The constant back-and-forth of opinion disagreements is tiring ^^

I can agree with that. ^^; They are from different universes, so there's really no point in comparing them.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Twisted Eternal Wolvetta on Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:08 pm

Because I am absolutely sick and tired to the back teeth of the amount of hatred Tomoe is constantly getting, I'm going to point out some things.

Fujino - Backstory? None.
Tomoe - Backstory? None.

Fujino
- Obsession over Kuga.
- Stalks Kuga.
- Teases fangirls.
- Attempts to murder Nao more than once.
- Kills District One workers over her obsession to Kuga.
- Wipes out Yukino's CHILD, knowing fully well how weak Yukino is as a HiME, merely for HaruKino standing up to her.
- ShizNatsu death.
- Reincarnation, off pops the "Sorry! *claps hands to cheek*.
- Sudden forgiveness; however Nao shall never forgive her.

Kruger - Major fangirl of Viola.
Viola - Attempts and suggests over sexual harrassment.
Kruger - Detests Viola.
Viola - Fights with Haruka.
Kruger - Forgives Viola.

Tomoe - Obsession to Viola (either romantic or not, I'm not entirely sure).
Viola - Ignores Tomoe.
Tomoe - Desperation for acknowledgement of Viola.
Viola - Ignores Tomoe.
Tomoe - Becomes a Valkyrie for acknowledgement from Viola.
Viola - Stabs Tomoe in the back. For what reason? Merely because Viola was bored.

The more Viola stabs at her, the worse Tomoe's obsession for acknowledgement forms, which brings about the involvement over her manipulating Miya into getting rid of the barriers (Arika) facing her to get the attention from Viola. Although without backstory, I believe that deep down she still has her true personality which she had originally before meeting with Viola - sweet and innocent - e,g; Otome-Manga Tomoe shows this without major insanity, she even says sorry to Miya and protects her during events even though she does have a crush for Viola.

Viola -> Manipulates Tomoe - > Manipulates Miya -> Manipulates Eristin & Arika -> Tomoe gets the blame. Why? Because no one believes Viola is like this – hence; the unguided soul gets punished instead of treated.

Its merely a whole gigantic chain reaction from Viola at all times, she is behind the curtains of a play controlling all of the characters whilst these characters in response get ridiculed if something is to go wrong.

Final note:

Fujino - A physiologically mad school girl who has a fit over her prey getting out of her tracks for once, e,g; mass murder under the major stealth barrier due to the HiME Carnival – the other characters are afraid of her sheer ability of manipulation and talent of staying under the spotlight of getting caught. Conclusion: little princess who gets everything.

Tomoe – Manipulated for the sake of being a fangirl and merely wants attention from her role model who is anything but that; in regards to this in return she is ignored which increases her determination into getting a response to her role model. However, due to seeing Viola's true personality Tomoe instead unconsciously develops Viola's personality vaguely which results into her learning how to be a mini Viola – note that Viola is her role model, and when you have a role model, you want to be like them. Conclusion: that student who was stabbed in the back because Viola knew precisely how to play with her strings which then brings about Zwei, which I believe Tomoe wanted to become the President to reveal who Viola truly is, along with ruining her.

After all, it is historically known every so often that the victim becomes the abuser.

I don't believe anything was wrong with either Fujino or Viola; however, by the end of Zwei I believe Tomoe would have developed the personality disorder, because honestly? Tomoe screams it in the anime.

”Borderline personality disorder (BPD)
BPD may cause a number of problems in different areas of your life. You may feel that you don’t have a strong sense of who you really are, and others may describe you as very changeable. You will suffer from mood swings, switching from one intense emotion to another very quickly, often with angry outbursts, and you may have brief psychotic episodes when you hear voices or see things that others can’t. You may end up doing things on impulse, which you later regret. You may have episodes of harming yourself, and think about taking your own life. You will probably also have a history of stormy or broken relationships, and you will have a tendency to cling on to very damaging relationships, because you are terrified of being alone."

Tomoe - Merely a person who is desperate for love but cannot understand it, other people, and especially not herself. She is misunderstood, and perhaps she has no idea what is wrong with her, but deep down she knows she has done wrong, although in reality, this isn't nothing compared to what Fujino did. Tomoe has merely learned how to survive in her own way through Viola.

If I was in Tomoe's situation, I would be in a serious mess as well. This is what people don't understand with obsession, I can relate to Tomoe, because I've had intense obsessions with not only objects and subjects, but also people. The thing with an obsession is that it develops further each time, it is alike to Autism, it becomes so extreme at times that you are in agony if you don't feed onto this source more. Tomoe has the problem in where she needs to feed off of the type of attention which Viola radiates else it'll bring the etching sensation of not only withdrawal, but also displeasure. An Autist style obsession is alike to that of when your body eats away at you when you are dying from hunger; you can overcome this, but at times it becomes so serious that you have to wait for it to die out on its own.

My obsessions were: the colour green for a good twelve years (a hell of a lot of my clothes were green, and my room is still green), Tomb Raider for around a decade (which I'll be more than likely redeveloping due to the reboot the series has gotten recently), astronomy, history and science for most of my life, Warcraft. My current obsessions are the Touhou Project which has been spiralling out of control for a good four years whilst my other has been Mai Otome for two years. Also, I had a bad obsession over a person who I absolutely adored, whether this was actual romantic love, I'm not sure, but this lasted for about four-five years, I was devoted to her, wanted to please her and understand her as much as possible, I just couldn't understand her properly when she would say she "only liked me a little", or that she "has somebody else".

This is the thing about Tomoe, she is more than one person mentally, she is so deep alike to that of an ocean that you need to study her so well, else you will make a mistake somewhere. So instead of constantly drawing the line on her, do something simple: study her.

Tomoe centred: http://ltahime.forum-motion.net/t1247-lavandula-pedunculata
A possible disorder Tomoe might have developed after Otome: http://www.mentalhealthcare.org.uk/psychotic_depression
Forms of personality disorder: http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/personality_disorders

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:15 pm

I've read your post a while back, Wolvy, and it pains me to think that Tomoe could of received the help, understanding and care she deserved if she only reached out. ^^; I cannot fault Tomoe for falling in love with Shizuru, even with the disorder issues you're presenting here. It only leaves the question if she had the capacity to ask the one she loves most - "I need help, I have all these evil thoughts about killing and taking over Garderobe, please help me Shizuru."

When you compare her to a misguided Shizuru from Mai-HiME, I'd like to say Tomoe had a tad more self-control to make things better and avoid unpleasant confrontation.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Twisted Eternal Wolvetta on Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:31 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:I've read your post a while back, Wolvy, and it pains me to think that Tomoe could of received the help, understanding and care she deserved if she only reached out. ^^; I cannot fault Tomoe for falling in love with Shizuru, even with the disorder issues you're presenting here. It only leaves the question if she had the capacity to ask the one she loves most - "I need help, I have all these evil thoughts about killing and taking over Garderobe, please help me Shizuru."

When you compare her to a misguided Shizuru from Mai-HiME, I'd like to say Tomoe had a tad more self-control to make things better and avoid unpleasant confrontation.

I think the reason why she never asked for help from Viola is her most obvious belief that she believes she is lower than Viola, that she cannot "ask from Shizuru Oneesama" because it would "trouble" her. This is the only thing I can think of so far, but it'd definitely be the route which she'd take as an excuse. Though... evil thoughts and taking over Garderobe, after all, she did this all in the name of Viola; well, obsessions can be healthy, but even so, they are still extremely painful, it makes me wonder what Tomoe truly went through since her obsession is definitely not in the safety zone whatsoever. However, I do believe that she has two types of personalities, with the fact that the personality disorder does reflect her characteristics horribly well - I'm thinking her original one is alike to the one she has from the Otome manga, she is innocent and polite, but extremely firm (manga-Tomoe obeys her mother with anything, although she does have the crush on Viola she stays with Miya).

For when it swaps however, I believe Viola is a trigger which causes this, and anything which relates to her (e.g; Arika) sets her off into the personality which has made her famous for. I don't think Kruger is much of one though because well... Kruger isn't exactly the brightest and most observing person in the Mai Series after all, so horribly oblivious to everything as well.

Note: A person which extreme obsession shall do anything to keep the object/subject/person unharmed; it is alike to that of when someone has found their soul mate - would you want that person to be insulted? Would you want them harmed? Definitely not. It is just like romantic love, expect at a different level which is almost always portrayed as evil because of the media which adore to twist things. Mostly, whenever you see someone with a disorder it is always the bad outcome.

Well, for having more self-control, I would say that she never intended to actually kill anyone, just... force them out of the way, although that wouldn't make sense for how she ordered Miya to throw the highly dangerous nanomachines at Arika/Erstin. I do wish TrollSunrise would put some information out there though to say what happened to the characters eventually, truthfully, from what Natsuki was attempting to do with SOLT, I think she would have been put onto the assassination list, since it is practically impossible to get rid of Otome, that's like telling people across Earth to get rid of nuclear power stations and weapons of mass destruction, which technically, are the exact same thing as the Otome, except obviously not living.

Although now that I also think on it, extreme Asperger's Syndrome ("minor" Autism, basically on the other side of the Autism scale of personality and form), there was once the story of a guy who was so obsessed with a girl and so misunderstood that he would stalk her and became rather violent.

Recently I've begun to believe that Sunrise are attempting to portray different forms of disorders through certain characters in the Mai Series.

E,g;
Haruka - High Functioning Autism - Suffers of Autism aren't always extremely intelligent, some have the average intelligence of the "normal" person, however, they have social frustration in where they are unable to release their emotions properly and sometimes get confused with wording (due to their brains not allowing them to think calmly, their bodies shall normally react first, this is also seen in Asperger's). Also, they are known to become enraged under the pain of being lonely along with misunderstood (many aren't able to interact well and fear screwing over, hence, they only have a few friends they are entirely comfortable with). Another thing which is misunderstood with the people of Autism is their thought process and imagination, all people have imagination, it is just people with Autism are wired slightly differently in the brain for how they shall go about this (some see in pictures, whilst some with words/numbers, etc).

Yukino - Asperger's Syndrome - The sibling of Autism, Asperger's is practically the same, however at a more minor degree (mostly), they also have obsessions just like the Autistic' and are usually highly intelligent with computers (not born intelligent, it is merely an intense, obsessive focus which allows them to keep track of their interests (usually a narrow selection which are also classed as "weird" by the mainstream. They adore storing every bit of data they research/learn and then remember it). Note also that their imagination is complex, perfect for stories, and usually they detest fighting which is portrayed in Yukino, they are very passive and meek most of the time (a low unemotional voice, along with a personality which mainstream usually classes as being "strange").

Tomoe - Personality Disorder - Of course, the link to this disorder along with information about how this relates to Tomoe is in my last post.

Although this is a Tomoe topic, I'm trying to strengthen out everything as guidelines and points to get people to understand all of this properly, there are always reasons for why someone behaves as they do ~ Tomoe basically had a dream to understand and absorb the personality and emotion which Viola radiates, and by hell, she shall regret this one day when someone bothers to push the book cover of her physical/mental appearance out of the way and become a true friend for her to be supported on properly.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Ris on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:13 pm

Tomoe is my favourite villain in the entire Mai franchise. So I do consider her a villain, but that doesn't make her any less of a great character (can't have a good mahou shoujo without good villains!) The idea that Shizuru was encouraging Tomoe's actions because she got an ego boost from having girls fighting over her is really interesting though.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Twisted Eternal Wolvetta on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:10 pm

Ris wrote:Tomoe is my favourite villain in the entire Mai franchise. So I do consider her a villain, but that doesn't make her any less of a great character (can't have a good mahou shoujo without good villains!) The idea that Shizuru was encouraging Tomoe's actions because she got an ego boost from having girls fighting over her is really interesting though.

It definitely would Ris! I'm thinking this is precisely why Viola did it, she has herds of fangirls at her side almost constantly every day, so eventually she would have gotten addicted to this sense of greed and ego and demand more until the students were practically fighting amongst one another, I mean, just look at how Butou is between students.

What does make me wonder though is what would happen if there was to be another character alike to Tomoe to have an obsessional focus over Viola, sparks would definitely fly, and perhaps that would've helped into making things less strained, since Tomoe and N/A would be yapping between one another and perhaps even lose their interest in Viola slowly (although most doubtful).

I think that is the only thing Tomoe needed really, someone to relate to, although because of Viola telling her "Tomoe reminds me of myself when I was younger", it drove Tomoe further into her obsession into getting to know her better until it was twisted. After all, no one truly knows the true Viola nor Fujino, she has far too many masks.

A wolf with a sheep's skin hiding a blade. I class the true villains of Otome to be Viola, Nagi and John Smith. If you noticed they are more alike when you put them together really.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:36 pm

Hmm, would you say Tomoe knows the TRUE Shizuru Viola better than Kruger does? o.o

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Sergay Tate on Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:46 pm

do i like Tomoe... no, plain and simple. i just don't. but that's probably because she made for a pretty good baddie. so i give her props for that.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:37 pm

Sergay Tate wrote:do i like Tomoe... no, plain and simple. i just don't. but that's probably because she made for a pretty good baddie. so i give her props for that.

As a villain she's great, I kinda wish she were the main villain sometimes. Can you imagine someone as aggressive as Tomoe using the Harmonium? @_@ tomoe2

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Sergay Tate on Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:50 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Sergay Tate wrote:do i like Tomoe... no, plain and simple. i just don't. but that's probably because she made for a pretty good baddie. so i give her props for that.

As a villain she's great, I kinda wish she were the main villain sometimes. Can you imagine someone as aggressive as Tomoe using the Harmonium? @_@ tomoe2

that would be quite cool to see actually, except there would be nothing left after the first time she used it. she would just demolish everything straight away and be done with it O.o she doesn't kid around

tomoe2 you've got that right!

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Ris on Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:00 pm

Back when Otome was airing, I thought Tomoe would turn out the be the real princess.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:02 pm

Sergay Tate wrote:that would be quite cool to see actually, except there would be nothing left after the first time she used it. she would just demolish everything straight away and be done with it O.o she doesn't kid around

tomoe2 you've got that right!

It would! The series has established that Tomoe is a person of unpleasant tasks, imagine that ten fold with greater power in her hands. Nina caused heavy genocide herself sure, but one can reason with her. Sergay most of all. Tomoe...unlesss it's Shizuru BEFORE the "It was all a lie, wasn't it?" scene, prepare for ground zero. x_x

tomoe2 Teal haired girls. Gotta love em'.

Back when Otome was airing, I thought Tomoe would turn out the be the real princess.

Now that would be one Hell of a plot twist. O_O;;;;

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Sergay Tate on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:01 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Back when Otome was airing, I thought Tomoe would turn out the be the real princess.

Now that would be one Hell of a plot twist. O_O;;;;

that would make for the worst kingdom ever, or best, depending on how you look at it. she would be pretty quick to attack other countries i reckon lol.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:43 pm

I do. I like her! Had she been a person I'd call the police. But as a character I think she was awesome! Her tantrums were gold!

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:28 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:I do. I like her! Had she been a person I'd call the police. But as a character I think she was awesome! Her tantrums were gold!

Her aggressive tantrums always resembled those of a wild white woman in bed...

Spoiler:
: RIP MY PUSSSY IN TWO, YOU MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!

Viola : *derpface*

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:31 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
Her aggressive tantrums always resembled those of a wild white woman in bed...

Spoiler:
: RIP MY PUSSSY IN TWO, YOU MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!

Viola : *derpface*

O,O OMG! Who have you been sleeping with??? How are you even still alive?! Mad respect to you, an achievement such as that is LEGENDARY! Not everybody can expose their junk to danger for the sake of the challenge! Many have tried and lost... Their battle scars being forever with them, their purpose now is spreading the word among younglings about the dangers of unpredictable wild women in bed.

A minute of silence for the lost "soldiers".

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Sergay Tate on Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:27 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
CaptainVonCookie wrote:I do. I like her! Had she been a person I'd call the police. But as a character I think she was awesome! Her tantrums were gold!

Her aggressive tantrums always resembled those of a wild white woman in bed...

Spoiler:
: RIP MY PUSSSY IN TWO, YOU MOTHER FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!

Viola : *derpface*

i feel like i've just been punched in the face or something... so much aggression!!! D:

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Saido on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:59 am

I like her. I feel for her. Like, she has serious issues and she just needed someone to love her, but I do have to say that maybe Shizuru-sama took it a little to far...
Shiznat forever!!!! ShizNat

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:24 am

Saido wrote:I like her. I feel for her. Like, she has serious issues and she just needed someone to love her, but I do have to say that maybe Shizuru-sama took it a little to far...
Shiznat forever!!!! ShizNat

Oh I agree with you, but you gotta remember that Shizuru did what she thought was right! lol It's a complex situation that could be look at from all angles really. You either end up agreeing with Shizuru or feel sorry for Tomoe (looking past all her quite visible faults).

Shizuru Viola had that "It takes a wolf to catch a wolf" mentality from Training Day. o.o It worked!

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The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

Luu Sky Sapphire
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.
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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Saido on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:33 am

Well it was the only way Shizuru could get the flipping key in the first place. I wonder what Tomoe did when she woke up with a binky in her mouth, completely naked, and no "mommy" around to play with her. shizurubaby

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:38 am

Saido wrote:Well it was the only way Shizuru could get the flipping key in the first place. I wonder what Tomoe did when she woke up with a binky in her mouth, completely naked, and no "mommy" around to play with her. shizurubaby

Probably continued to enjoy herself...*ahem*...thinking of "Shizuru-oneesama" as the thought of betray didn't cross her mind yet. Though I imagine her suspicions started to build before the big battle. o.o

Hmm, a naked Tomoe. Lovely thought. :lol:

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Mai-X-Project

The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

Luu Sky Sapphire
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.

Posts : 38606
Bubuzuke points : 42279
Armitage GUTS!!! : 2498
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 31
Location : Garderobe Academy

View user profile http://shiznat.webs.com/

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Saido on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:41 am

She is kind of cute... In the story i'm writing I'm trying to debate if she falls in love with my main character or just works for her... tomoe

Saido
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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:44 am

Saido wrote:She is kind of cute... In the story i'm writing I'm trying to debate if she falls in love with my main character or just works for her... tomoe

Hmm, depends. I believe after the harsh rejection by Shizuru (I'm gonna assume this story isn't too AU), I think you might want to have her discover what love truly means with your O.C.

Just a thought! XD; Don't mind me.

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Mai-X-Project

The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

Luu Sky Sapphire
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.

Posts : 38606
Bubuzuke points : 42279
Armitage GUTS!!! : 2498
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 31
Location : Garderobe Academy

View user profile http://shiznat.webs.com/

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

Post by Saido on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:49 am

Well the thing is, Natsuki and Shizuru are married, and my OC is the child... And Tomoe got her ass kicked.... U got a deviantart? bump

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Re: Be honest. Do you like Tomoe Marguerite?

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