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Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

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Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by Break String SpinElf on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:07 am

Care to indulge an old blow-hard once more? No? Well, hard cheese, because the hard blowing starts now!

In the main, I just wished to create a thread in which I will speculate on potential connections between Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome, looking at shared characters & the possible development of organisations between the two series.


Though this post is, of course, merely speculation, it is assumed herein that the two series form part of a continuous timeline, with Mai-Otome being a distant successor, taking place some six centuries or so after Mai-HiME, as indicated by Ruby-sama's excellent timeline. As this is based upon the anime, the manga (wherein the connection is confirmed) will not be considered. In addition, unlike the manga, there is substantial evidence in the anime which suggests that Earl is not the earth (for example its distinctive native fauna & geography as seen at the end of Zwei).

Characters

There are a number of characters whom I believe could be the same individual in both series. In particular, Miyu & Mikoto emerge as the likeliest candidates. Mai-Otome depicts both as inordinately old and exceptionally powerful. There are a number of enigmas, however, which I will also seek to address, probably in my usual deeply-unsatisfactory manner. If I've not already bored you to tears, please read on. I guarantee you'll be begging for mercy if you have the inner strength to make it to the end.

Miyu (& Alissa)

If you are confronted by this, you are already doomed.

If there's any one character you'd bet someone else's house on being the same individual in both series, it's Miyu. Obviously, as a hemicybernetic life form, Miyu's putative longevity is easily explained. My own personal suspicion is that she was among the first people to reach Earl during the Immigration Age: witness the snatch of a poem quoted by Sergay: -

Sergay Wáng (Shinsen Subs) wrote:By using the blue planet as our guide,
take me and dear Princess by my side,
through a thousand stars and ten thousand nights,
toward the golden era of light.
Sergay Wáng (Dub) wrote:The blue star shall become our eternal sign,
to guide us and our beloved princess through the ages,
we shall journey past a thousand stars and ten thousand nights,
toward the golden future that will be upon us.

To me, the imagery here suggests that it could easily have been written from Miyu's viewpoint, in particular the princess (Alissa) by Miyu's side, and the third line which conjures images of long-haul space flight, perhaps undertaken in a generational vessel (10,000 nights is pretty much one generation by my reckoning, assuming they keep to the 24-hour earth clock). It's perhaps no coincidence that this snippet is included in a conversation Sergay has with Arika about events dating to what the latter terms her "grandma's grandma's time" or words to that effect - one of her (probably matrilineal, imo) female ancestors being Alissa Searrs. There's also a picture of Alissa taking tea in a tall building, presumably taken from Miyu's memory (she is discussing the continued success of Alissa's bloodline at the time) which could be in Wind Bloom or Aries: -


It's worth noting that Alissa doesn't look a great deal older than her HiME self in this image, strongly suggesting that she may have started her family on Earl if my supposition is taken as valid.

Clearly Miyu did predate the settlement of Earl (if AR 0 is taken as the end of the Immigration Age), as, by the period of the War of Twelve Kingdoms (which would've ended around AR 30), there appear to have been at least eight successive generations of Multiple Intelligential Yggdasil Units (M-9, more fully MIYU-9, fought during the latter phase of that conflict, as evidenced by her apparent knowledge of Fumi's fighting technique in S.ifr). However, by AR 330, her programming has altered, rendering her the Merciful Intelligential Yggdrasil Unit. How could this happen?

Well, the overriding reason from my point of view is the deep love she shared with Alissa. Miyu combined biological & technological components if I'm understanding the omake correctly, which could've rendered her capable of evolving beyond her initial programming. It is also these tender feelings which Miyu had for Alissa - described as being far beyond human experience - which could easily have led to her acquiring a "merciful" nature.

Of course, the little birdie which perches on Miyu's badass shoulders is not Alissa Searrs. I interpret this figure as sharing an organo-technological basis with the likes of Childs, Slaves & Orphans as she serves as a vessel containing the DNA of Alissa Searrs, which enables Miyu to access the higher functions of her weapons system (inevitably including Artemis). Another alternative is that the bird is some sort of emissary: Mikoto the cat turns out to be serving as Mikoto the cat goddess' eyes & ears in Wind Bloom. Perhaps bird!Alissa carries out a similar function? Obviously, that could imply that Alissa Searrs yet lives during the time of Mai-Otome, which is unsupported - if not directly contradicted - by the internal evidence, though it's an interesting notion nonetheless. Just thinking out loud here...

Mikoto

"Bashing heads is fun, Maiiiii~~~!"

Another character likely to appear in both series is Earl's very own cat goddess Mikoto. Miyu explains that Mikoto the Nekogami is "a Suishouhime" and the last of the "genuine materialisers," which can only indicate that she is Mikoto Minagi. The concept of Suishouhime being identical with the winner of the previous HiME Carnival is established in HiME, where Mashiro Kazahana bears the title.

Of course, it's worth noting that Mai could also claim to have won the 2004 Carnival, which could provide something of a spanner in the works. Here's my scenario: -

Due to the entrance, and recognition, of Alissa Searrs as a HiME in that event, the conditions for the opening of the Land of Fuuka were satisfied with, of course, two HiME left standing: Mai & Mikoto. Of course, Reito sought to have Mai win and would've ordered Mikoto to stand down to allow her the field. However, after Mai informed him that... she would have to politely decline - and especially after Mai & Mikoto's reconciliation - Mikoto emerged as the de facto victor. Of course, with the HiME Star pretty much reduced to vapour, this is all merely academic, but it is conceivable that the Searrs Foundation (or some other faction) managed to obtain enough data to produce a simulacrum of the HiME Star. Capturing Mikoto (who has apparently not aged during the more-than-half-a-millennium between the two series), she could've become their prized asset: Miyu also notes that, eventually, the Otome system was created from work carried out using Mikoto as a test subject. The possible reactivation of a fragment of the Star or the redevelopment thereof would also explain why, despite having lost her HiME symbol at the end of HiME, it's back in Otome.

This would also explain why it was thought prudent to bury Reito up to his neck in sand, but that's another story.

Mashiro & Nagi

The phantom earlobe-licker strikes again!

At the end of HiME, Fumi is seen bidding a tearful farewell to Mashiro & the snow-crowned prick as they pass through the mysterious door of mystery in the Academy library. Obviously, they went somewhere. Why not Earl?

Well, of course, there's the issue of timing. If Fumi's Master, briefly glimpsed at the beginning of S.ifr is an older Mashiro Kazahana, an explanation is needed as to why she's looking in such good condition for someone who's about 612 years old. It would seem that the "Gate to Valhalla" is a temporal as well as spatial portal, which has deposited the pair on Earl some 300 years in the future. There is definitely some "First District" influence on Earl (Fuuka Castle, the Obsidian Palace, the name of Wind Bloom itself) in addition to the ubiquity of the Searrs Foundation on the planet. My scenario is thus: -

Mashiro & Nagi find themselves on Earl, where Mashiro begins to found the state apparatus of Wind Bloom (which, I understand, is an English rendering of Kazahana), whilst Nagi founds Altai. Nagi Homura's non-appearance in Otome to date is not a problem, given that Mashiro herself only appears fleetingly, in a scene where Fumi, rather than she, is the main focus.

Now, of course, I have prevailed upon myself to explain why, if Mashiro Kazahana founded Wind Bloom, presumably serving as its first monarch, her near-identical descendent Mashiro Blan de Windbloom was unable to use the Harmonium. Personally, rather than Mashiro, I feel that Wind's royal family are descended from Fumi. We know that she had a family (having had children is a prerequisite for a Founder) and we know that she brokered an agreement between Garderobe & the royal family. Why not something along the lines of a prenup?

In this scenario, having served as queen, Mashiro Kazahana abdicated, later eventually marrying Nagi and founding the archducal family of Altai. Mashiro Blan de Windbloom being, in all probability, the genetic child of Bel Glan Artai & Sakura Hazakura.

Fumi

So, if Mashiro & Nagi appear in both series, is it possible that Fumi Himeno the pink-haired HiMe and Fumi Himeno the pink-haired Ur-Otome are the same person? Yes, it could well be. Of course, we last see Fumi in HiME taking over as the Director of Fuuka Academy, Mashiro & the prick having already taken their leave. Thus, how on earth did she come to end up not on earth but Earl?

There's one simple solution: via the door.

So far, so good. However, both Mashiro & Nagi are entities other than human. There's no guarantee that Fumi could use it and, even if she could, the end point would need to be stable lest she end up being dinosaur food or such like.

I remain slightly agnostic.

Organisations

Searrs Foundation

One organisation we see both during the HiME Carnival and on Earl are the Searrs Foundation. This organisation's aspirations of a "Golden Millennium" cannot help but remind one of chiliasm in Christianity and similar concepts in other religions, as well as, on a more sinister tone, the Nazi ideal of the "thousand year Reich." One snippet we find out during HiME is the immense political sway this shadowy group have: it is said by Yamada that they have the power to choose US Presidents. However, their roots are ancient, suggesting that they are some sort of secret organisation along the lines of the fictional Prieuré de Sion of conspiracy theory infamy or the Bavarian Illuminati. Having lain off the Kool-Aid, I will not blather about how their roots lie in a group of twelve or so Ubaidian individuals skulking in a corner in downtown Eridu...

Anyway, after the Foundation's initial failure during the 2004 HiME Carnival, the subsequent removal of the First District from the scene (thanks to Shizuru's new-found penchant for human hecatombs at the altar of ShizNat) resulted in their major rival being put out of action. The Searrs were therefore free to explore the possibility of developing futuretech based on HiME-related materials. Presumably using these remains and artifacts, along with a certain research paper written by a staggeringly-precocious 17-year-old, these enquiries would eventually lead to the development of the Otome system on pre-Harmonium Earl. The Searrs Foundation were definitely present (see the logo in the library in Altai from Zwei for example), though I posit a split sometime after the end of the War of Twelve Kingdoms, which resulted in many of the scientists going on to work at Garderobe, whilst others, holding dear the pre-war glory days of Black Garderobe, became the Shwartz. I know that many other people suspect that the Shwartz are simply the Searrs Foundation under a new name, though I feel that, given the breadth of knowledge present in the Founder's shrine, Garderobe must've inherited the lion's share of the Searrs' legacy.


Anyway, there is good reason to suspect that ideological splits are not unfamiliar within the Searrs Foundation. For example, though he's not explicitly seen in "resurrected" form, Alissa's "father" must've returned to life after Mashiro undid the Carnival's gruesome work, as Alissa had been accepted as a HiME and a pillar raised after her defeat. In the mean time, this wild-haired gent's successor had been pursuing another policy, which involved ingratiating the Foundation with the Obsidian Lord using John Smith as his emissary, as well as destroying all evidence for the existence of the dead man's machinations. I find it difficult to believe that this blond chap would meekly forsake his new-found power & status upon the reappearance of the old leader, nor would he be best pleased with the work his successor was carrying out. There's more than one way to bring about the Golden Millennium...



[Now you may beg for mercy]


Last edited by Break String SpinElf on Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:51 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Added HiME image from Shirow's notes.)

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by The Fire Stirring Ruby on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:29 am

Off-topic... but:
Break String SpinElf wrote:Ruby-sama's excellent timeline.

Elf, that honorific just doesn't fit the bill for me. (^_^Wink Ruby is fine.

You beat me to this thread, Elf. I was supposed to post a series of photos way back when, screencaptured from HiME and Otome-verse.

Ehem, well then. I must say that Earl really is different from Earth. I say this with certainty because of what Mashiro Kazahana told Mai Tokiha in Mai-HiME episode 3, I think. I don't have the screenshots but I recall the conversation going like this:

Mashiro, about the Orphans: They're not from this world.

... which means, Earl is a separate place from Earth.

(I know we're not supposed to dive into the manga-verse, but the manga posits imo that Earl = Earth. Somebody just put on a lore that Earthlings had to travel across the universe to find Earl and inhabit it for themselves.)

I had typed a great chunk of text relating to this post but I think it's kind of confusing at the moment, so I'll be typing it up later when I get my bearings all right. My point goes from one point to someplace else. eue

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by Break String SpinElf on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:53 pm

Hey Ruby, good to hear from you. I hope you're well.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:You beat me to this thread, Elf. I was supposed to post a series of photos way back when, screencaptured from HiME and Otome-verse.
Oops! Sorry to steal your thunder Ruby! :-S

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:Ehem, well then. I must say that Earl really is different from Earth. I say this with certainty because of what Mashiro Kazahana told Mai Tokiha in Mai-HiME episode 3, I think. I don't have the screenshots but I recall the conversation going like this:

Mashiro, about the Orphans: They're not from this world.

... which means, Earl is a separate place from Earth.
Excellent point, the implications of which I failed to factor into my hypothesis. I'm grateful for your having brought this into the thread. If Mashiro & Nagi belonged "elsewhere" and that "elsewhere" was/came to be Earl, the Orphans, with their connection to Nagi, would of course also have their origins on Earl. Certainly has interesting implications for the development timeline for Slave tech.

To be honest, I hadn't really considered the possibility that Earl represents something along the lines of Yomi from the legend of Izanami-no-mikoto, though it's an intriguing idea.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I had typed a great chunk of text relating to this post but I think it's kind of confusing at the moment, so I'll be typing it up later when I get my bearings all right. My point goes from one point to someplace else. eue
Excellent news! I look forward to it! :-D

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by The Fire Stirring Ruby on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:34 pm

Break String SpinElf wrote:Hey Ruby, good to hear from you. I hope you're well.
I'm well as I'll ever be, I hope. Having a little trouble here and there.
Break String SpinElf wrote:Oops! Sorry to steal your thunder Ruby! :-S
Nah, it's okay. The PC where it had my observations died.
Break String SpinElf wrote:To be honest, I hadn't really considered the possibility that Earl represents something along the lines of Yomi from the legend of Izanami-no-mikoto, though it's an intriguing idea.
I'll be honest: I'm not really well-versed or even knowledgeable in Japanese mythology. Just bits from what Static-Subs shared.


I'd like to steer the attention toward the Gate of Valhalla and the Black Valley, as this is the core of what I'm going to talk about.

It's only an observation but I noticed that the Orphans (and probably the CHILDs, too) are quite endemic to Fuuka no Miya. They appear only (there may be exceptions, but who knows?) within the boundaries of the land of Fuuka -- which is probably convenient for the First District people. If ever word gets out that something strange has happened, they could easily suppress it as evidenced by that one episode in Mai-HiME. I forgot which one it is, but I recall Chie saying "It's not even on the news" or somewhere along those lines.

It's also interesting to note that the HiME Star goes inside the Crystal Dome only. According to the Shiho's grandfather, there was a tree back then inside that Crystal Dome where the HiMEs of the old wrote messages for their beloved ones and tied it up there. It may be possible that the tree that he's talking about may be the World Tree -- Sekaijuu, if you will.

Now, what do these stuff have in relation to the Black Valley?

Remember, Black Valley was the place where the Otome (and SLAVE?) technology and the Harmonium (also, Yuna?) were created. Then, there is also the fact that the Crystal Dome actually exists in Earl.

It's a long shot but, I think that the entire Black Valley is actually a piece of the land of Fuuka. The biggest chunk of Fuuka probably is what happened to be named Black Valley. The other big piece must be the ruins that Nina and Nao visited. The remaining bits were probably the sites that suddenly sprouted out of nowhere in Zwei that actually housed some CHILDs.

It also seems that the whole Black Valley is sentient, evidenced by Mai's remark on Mai-Otome Zwei episode 1. She says that "the mountain's crying." I have no idea yet why it's sentient, but there is a possibility that it still had a remnant of power from the HiME Star or the Obsidian Lord. Who or whatever that is.

As I recall from my dim memories of Zwei, I think it was in episode 3 where Nina and Nao go to the ruins to check something out. It happens that they fell into the Crystal Dome -- there's the circle barricade. There are a lot of ancient texts and even a missing GEM stone. There's also the fact that there's an egg in its midst, who happens to be Kagutsuchi.

The Crystal Dome (and, consequentially, the other pieces of Fuuka land) may have had some "memories" in it left from hundred of years. It may have had some retained knowledge of the CHILDs.

But, one thing does not make sense yet to me.

Recall that Yuna probably was made in the Black Valley. She took on Fumi's form and practically chased Mashiro to "evolve" into a much more formidable form. This formidable form is a mish-mash of Mashiro Kazahana's CHILD form and Miroku's CHILD form.

Soooo yeah, I hope that made sense... eue

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by Break String SpinElf on Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:48 am

This is a fantastic bit of work Ruby. HiME

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I'll be honest: I'm not really well-versed or even knowledgeable in Japanese mythology. Just bits from what Static-Subs shared.
Me neither. I did some investigation into what Static-Subs suggested as possible origins for aspects of the HiME Carnival in Japanese mythology and briefly re-acquainted myself with the story of Izanagi-no-mikoto, Izanami-no-mikoto and Yomi from the Kojiki.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:It's only an observation but I noticed that the Orphans (and probably the CHILDs, too) are quite endemic to Fuuka no Miya. They appear only (there may be exceptions, but who knows?) within the boundaries of the land of Fuuka -- which is probably convenient for the First District people. If ever word gets out that something strange has happened, they could easily suppress it as evidenced by that one episode in Mai-HiME. I forgot which one it is, but I recall Chie saying "It's not even on the news" or somewhere along those lines.
Agreed. The fact that news of the Orphan attacks and subsequent events during the Carnival is so easily suppressed does imply that they only really occur within a small area. The approach of the HiME Star does of course have global effects during the latter period of the Carnival when it is in close proximity to the earth, though there's nothing to suggest that these are interpreted as anything other than natural disasters by the rest of the world.

With regards to Orphans & CHILDs, I note elsewhere that, according to the Kojiki, Izanagi-no-mikoto & Izanami-no-mikoto's first children were, after a fashion, rejected, and are not generally counted among their legitimate offspring: -
Break String SpinElf wrote:Hiruko & Awashima, as children of Izanagi-no-mikoto & Izanami-no-mikoto who were sent away due to their being deformed, and who are not counted as legitimate offspring of the pair, seem a likely basis for the Orphans, who are similarly described as "lost" Childs in the series.
In addition, during his journey to Yomi in search of Izanami-no-mikoto, Izanagi-no-mikoto comes to be pursued by a whole host of weird & terrifying monsters, against which he employs intriguing countermeasures: -
The compiler of the Kojiki wrote:So His Augustness the Male-Who-Invites (i.e. Izanagi-no-mikoto) took his black august head-dress and cast it down, and it instantly turned into grapes. While she picked them up and ate them, he fled on; but as she still pursued him, he took and broke the multitudinous and close-toothed comb in the right bunch [of his hair] and cast it down, and it instantly turned into bamboo-sprouts. While she pulled them up and ate them, he fled on. Again later [his Younger sister] sent the eight Thunder-Deities with a thousand and five hundred warriors of Hades to pursue him. So he, drawing the ten-grasp sabre that was augustly girded on him, fled forward brandishing it in his back hand; and as they still pursued, he took, on reaching the base of the Even Pass of Hades, three peaches that were growing at its base, and waited and smote [his pursuers therewith], so that they all fled back.
It is my contention that some combination of these two elements provides the mythological basis for the CHILDs, Orphans and SLAVE technology.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:It's also interesting to note that the HiME Star goes inside the Crystal Dome only. According to the Shiho's grandfather, there was a tree back then inside that Crystal Dome where the HiMEs of the old wrote messages for their beloved ones and tied it up there. It may be possible that the tree that he's talking about may be the World Tree -- Sekaijuu, if you will.
Excellent point. To me, that statement is a key to interpreting what one might call the "Fuuka cosmogony." A few months ago, I was reading a book on ancient Egyptian funerary texts which argued that, after an initial creation (known as the Zep Tepi or "First Occasion"), there was some sort of cataclysm, usually presented as a storm or the work of the chaos deity Set, followed by an enormous expansion of the Egyptian universe. This may seem off topic, though these notions are something which can apparently be traced in other mythologies. In these instances, the earliest land becomes something of an underworld, which makes sense in interpreting Mai-HiME to my mind. Therein, the earliest creation was Fuuka no Miya, located around the axis mundi in the form of the "World Tree" which formerly stood in the Crystal Dome (it is perhaps no coincidence that, in the terminology used by the Searrs Foundation, with their penchant for using terms culled from Norse mythology, the name Yggdrasil, the World Tree in that corpus, crops us). The cataclysmic event during the era of creation would be the first HiME Carnival, the one discussed by Shiho's grandfather which involved the tree, whilst the Crystal Dome itself represents the earliest restricted cosmos (the sky being a dome of some material or another also features in a number of mythologies iirc, crystal of course having a special meaning in the Fuuka cosmogony). The likelihood that Fuuka no Miya represents the axis of the world and the starting point for the creation of the cosmos explains  how First District came to be so called.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:Remember, Black Valley was the place where the Otome (and SLAVE?) technology and the Harmonium (also, Yuna?) were created. Then, there is also the fact that the Crystal Dome actually exists in Earl.
Indeed. Developing the hypothesis of a "World Tree" further, Fuuka no Miya eventually became a type of otherworld or underworld (hence Alissa referring to Mashiro as the "Queen of Hell") housing the putative roots of the world tree. If one of the roots is imagined as being on earth, another is located in Black Valley. The "roots" would seem to take the form, in the series, of something along the lines of wormholes, operating as portals connecting the various locations.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:It's a long shot but, I think that the entire Black Valley is actually a piece of the land of Fuuka. The biggest chunk of Fuuka probably is what happened to be named Black Valley. The other big piece must be the ruins that Nina and Nao visited. The remaining bits were probably the sites that suddenly sprouted out of nowhere in Zwei that actually housed some CHILDs.
This is an interesting line of thought and it's worth noting that most of the CHILDs associated with Yuna appear in the various national capitals. It would make sense that these were originally sited where they are due to an inherent power associated with their being fragments of Fuuka.

It is worth noting, however, that the library in Altai where Nina & Nao are confronted by Yuna was created by the Searrs Foundation and bears their logo prominently. It may be that they somehow managed to obtain scientific knowledge about the workings of the Fuuka wormhole system and extended it to various other places in Earl.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:It also seems that the whole Black Valley is sentient, evidenced by Mai's remark on Mai-Otome Zwei episode 1. She says that "the mountain's crying." I have no idea yet why it's sentient, but there is a possibility that it still had a remnant of power from the HiME Star or the Obsidian Lord. Who or whatever that is.
Excellent point Ruby. If I could posit a possible third source for this sentience, I would suggest that the very first Suishouhime may be the cause. I say this because Yomi is the domain of Izanami-no-mikoto, on whom the figure of Suishouhime is based, along with Mashiro, the 2004 Suishouhime, being described as the "Queen of Hell," and, in addition, Earl's Suishouhime Mikoto has been based in Black Valley from her arrival on Earl. The Suishouhime, during the period in which the HiME Star was in operation, acts as a sentient "core" for the star and has a number of extraordinary powers (such as those shown by Mashiro during the final episode of Mai-HiME). It's also worth noting that the MIP of defeated HiME, in becoming pillars in the entrance room to Fuuka no Miya, would appear to retain their memories and humanity (when they are resurrected, they are pretty much identical to the people they were before their demise). Thus, the sentience of the place and the power of the HiME Star likely derive from the souls of the people trapped within this underworld.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:As I recall from my dim memories of Zwei, I think it was in episode 3 where Nina and Nao go to the ruins to check something out. It happens that they fell into the Crystal Dome -- there's the circle barricade. There are a lot of ancient texts and even a missing GEM stone. There's also the fact that there's an egg in its midst, who happens to be Kagutsuchi.

The Crystal Dome (and, consequentially, the other pieces of Fuuka land) may have had some "memories" in it left from hundred of years. It may have had some retained knowledge of the CHILDs.
I agree that what one might approximately term the "DNA patterns" of the CHILDs are embedded within Fuuka no Miya and it's certainly no coincidence that Yuna is at its/her most powerful in places such as these. She also appears in the Founder's shrine at Garderobe, where she defeats Miss Maria. As episode 8 of Mai-Otome proves, there is also a Forbidden Library boasting all manner of arcane information in one of the antechambers, as well as pillars set up as memorials to fallen Otome (one wonders as to whether or not these too retain some semblance of sentience given the similarity between their deaths and those of the MIPs).

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:But, one thing does not make sense yet to me.

Recall that Yuna probably was made in the Black Valley. She took on Fumi's form and practically chased Mashiro to "evolve" into a much more formidable form. This formidable form is a mish-mash of Mashiro Kazahana's CHILD form and Miroku's CHILD form.
My personal view is that this is again associated with the person of Suishouhime: Mashiro's CHILD form has this name and its powers, whilst Miroku was the CHILD of Mikoto, who would eventually succeed Mashiro as the Suishouhime.

(Of course, my answer to pretty much everything at the moment is Suishouhime... :3)

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by The Fire Stirring Ruby on Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:50 am

Break String SpinElf wrote:With regards to Orphans & CHILDs, I note elsewhere that, according to the Kojiki, Izanagi-no-mikoto & Izanami-no-mikoto's first children were, after a fashion, rejected, and are not generally counted among their legitimate offspring: [...]
It is my contention that some combination of these two elements provides the mythological basis for the CHILDs, Orphans and SLAVE technology.

Whoops. Hahaha, I must have forgotten to include my two-cents on the matter of CHILDs, Orphans and the SLAVE technology.

I clearly recall that Mai-HiME omake with Natsuki, talking about the CHILDs and Orphans in particular. It is probably - I say probably, because I remember it so dimly - said that a HiME's CHILD was an Orphan before, and that the Orphan was born out of that HiME's feelings. It is only when the HiME accepts the Orphan that it becomes a CHILD.

It makes sense, since it's like adopting a child from an orphanage. The kid becomes your child.

Now, connecting this to Mai-Otome. Recall from my previous post about the existence of Orphans: Mashiro said that they're not from this world.

It is my contention here, that Orphans must have come from Earl. These creatures roam ever so freely until the Black Science caught them. If I'm not mistaken, both the Aswad and Schwartz had SLAVEs, right? They're probably called SLAVEs because they were taken by force - called them "from the power of Science" or something like that.

I probably would have written more response here, but really. I've run out of anything to say. Also, Suishouhime!

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by Break String SpinElf on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:27 pm

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I clearly recall that Mai-HiME omake with Natsuki, talking about the CHILDs and Orphans in particular. It is probably - I say probably, because I remember it so dimly - said that a HiME's CHILD was an Orphan before, and that the Orphan was born out of that HiME's feelings. It is only when the HiME accepts the Orphan that it becomes a CHILD.

It makes sense, since it's like adopting a child from an orphanage. The kid becomes your child.
Very succinctly put. There are one or two obvious differences, in particular the bestowing of names & particular personalities & abilities on CHILDs and, certainly in Mai's case (as well as Natsuki in Natsuki no Prelude), the preexistence of a bond between HiME & CHILD prior to acceptance, though these are easily explained away by the machinations of the HiME Star and the bond between HiME & MIP which allows the CHILD to manifest in a physical form.

The fact that the CHILDs have names whilst the Orphans do not is also not too great an issue as the Aswad bestow names on their SLAVEs, whereas the Shwartz do not.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:Now, connecting this to Mai-Otome. Recall from my previous post about the existence of Orphans: Mashiro said that they're not from this world.

It is my contention here, that Orphans must have come from Earl. These creatures roam ever so freely until the Black Science caught them. If I'm not mistaken, both the Aswad and Schwartz had SLAVEs, right? They're probably called SLAVEs because they were taken by force - called them "from the power of Science" or something like that.
This is plausible. By the time of Mai-Otome, of course, the SLAVEs have been altered so as to be summoned only through the use of GEM-like devices (with slight differences, both the Aswad & Shwartz make use of these), with little or no evidence of any Orphans still existing "in the wild" so to speak.

However, your scenario provides a satisfying etymology for the name of the Sprites' Forest near Black Valley. Whilst it is possible that this area gained its eerie reputation as a result of the use of the Harmonium at the end of the War of Twelve Kingdoms, serving as a liminal area between the now-discombobulated Black Valley & the rest of Earl, it could also have gained its name due to the former (or current) presence of Orphans & Orphan-like entities in the Forest. Certainly, if it was close to Black Valley before the use of the Harmonium, its proximity to what you suggest was "[t]he biggest chunk of Fuuka," would make it the sort of area where Orphans would appear & roam.

Also, given what we see in Mai-HiME, where pre-manifestation Orphans & CHILDs occasionally take the form of petroglyphs, sometimes of the moving variety, this could suggest that their "souls" (or whatever) form a part of the consciousness of Fuuka no Miya (given that combat against Orphans is something of a HiME tutorial, and therefore probably not a feature of the ur-HiME Carnival, could the Orphans in some way be the souls of the MIPs of defeated HiME?)

Certainly, even in 2004, the Searrs Foundation had made a number of breakthroughs in understanding Orphans, as witnessed by Alissa's ability to summon Orphan-like entities such as the "Vampire." Given the time gap between the last HiME Carnival & the settlement of Earl, there's little reason to doubt that they would have had the knowledge & technology needed to effectively enslave any endemic Orphans they found on Earl, thus creating the SLAVE technology.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:I probably would have written more response here, but really. I've run out of anything to say. Also, Suishouhime!
Suishouhime indeed! Happy

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by The Fire Stirring Ruby on Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:56 am

I re-watched episodes one to three of Mai-Otome and have just realized that Windbloom's castle is called Fuuka.

Funny story is, in the manga, the entire land where the Fuuka castle is built upon is actually the same area where Fuuka academy had stood upon long ago. (I know this is just for the anime-verse, but humor me.) While the manga was published after the anime, I think the manga puts slight emphases on some things that have been hinted at the anime.

One of these may lie with the land. That and the Suishouguu (or what I refer to as the Crystal Dome). It may show what kind of connection Earl and Earth have, and indirectly, the two series: Mai-HiME and Mai-Otome.


On some other note, I just noticed on the second Otome episode that Schwartz guy's eyes. It actually turned yellow when he activated the SLAVE tech. I wonder...

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

Post by Break String SpinElf on Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:27 pm

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:Funny story is, in the manga, the entire land where the Fuuka castle is built upon is actually the same area where Fuuka academy had stood upon long ago. (I know this is just for the anime-verse, but humor me.) While the manga was published after the anime, I think the manga puts slight emphases on some things that have been hinted at the anime.

One of these may lie with the land. That and the Suishouguu (or what I refer to as the Crystal Dome). It may show what kind of connection Earl and Earth have, and indirectly, the two series: Mai-HiME and Mai-Otome.
Personal opinion: I believe there was a short précis common to the anime & manga of both series, probably in the form of brief notes about various bits & pieces, characters, factions and the like, from which the different narratives grew.

With regards to the possibility that Fuuka castle also housed a connection to Black Valley & the Land of Fuuka, very probably. Recall that, when they were venturing underneath the castle in episode 7, Arika & Mashiro pass by a downed fighter dating from the War of Twelve Kingdoms and bearing Wind Bloom's crest. Clearly, the area of the castle was the scene of some fighting during that conflict which would appear to substantiate this idea.

Whether or not the Harmonium was already in its final location at that stage is immaterial: the castle could only have been built to (quite literally) put a lid on the dark past which lay beneath in my view.

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:On some other note, I just noticed on the second Otome episode that Schwartz guy's eyes. It actually turned yellow when he activated the SLAVE tech. I wonder...
Interesting spot. I regard this as demonstrating Shwartz' familiarity with powers associated with the Obsidian Lord, thus tying it to Fuuka. Shwartz' lineage almost certainly starts with the Searrs Foundation (they're a splinter sect in my view) and, long ago, I posted a long & very off-topic piece about the yellowing of the eyes of Slave Lords during their "madness" and how it emulates that displayed by Reito Minagi whilst under the influence of the Obsidian Lord: -

Break String SpinElf wrote:I [...] think that the Shwartz also have powers derived ultimately from the Obsidian Lord: their "Black Light, god of knowledge and wisdom" may well refer to this entity. For example, when a Slave Lord summons a Slave, their irises turn yellow, similar to Reito when he's possessed by the Obsidian Lord: -


Slave Lord


Reito

(Of course, Reito also displays yellow eyes in Mikoto's memories [NB he was wearing the "GEM" at the time: -)


The Slave Lord's pupils also become cat-like, which is a sign of possession during use of the Slave (as noted by Shizuru in episode 13 when she encounters the Slave Lord below): -


The same thing happens to Sifr when she's using her powers as a Weaver, suggesting a possible connection between the Minagi bloodline and that of the Wind Bloom royal family [Bruce's eyes also turn yellow during M-9's activation]: -


It must be noted that Nina's eyes don't change colour when she uses the Harmonium, though her pupils do become cat-like (this is less evident on the DVD so I'm using a screencap from the fansub): -


The Slave technology also potentially has common ground with the GEMs: both appear to require DNA confirmation before activation (compare the Master kissing the GEM with the Slave Lord needing to supply a blood sample during summoning): -


Clearly, the Aswad found a way around this, probably out of necessity (of all the Aswad shown with slaves, only Midori is organic).


Last edited by Break String SpinElf on Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:33 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added note to old post quoted.)

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Re: Mai-HiME & Mai-Otome: same 'verse?

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