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Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

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Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:08 am

Did the CHILDs protect the HiME when sealed?




---

We got a clear answer in the flashback where Kagutsuchi's spirit races towards a drowning Mai Tokiha and Mikoto Minagi, after the ferry incident in Episode 1. However, this thread will house all possible events where the CHILDs protected the 12 HiME.

Natsuki no Prelude counts as well. Shizuru Fujino

Now, why is it that the CHILDs are able to accomplish this? Considering the land of Fuuka ignited the abilities of the HiME, it was only a matter of time until their powers developed further. With Kagutsuchi's sealed broken by Mai, he was able to assist his HiME in full physical form.

There was also Akane Higurashi and Hari during a flashback in Episode 8:




It's still unclear as to what exactly happened. By Akane seeing Nagi and Hari's seal, was Hari's spirit energy released? Did it destroy the Orphan? Or did Nagi quickly feed Akane the necessary information on how to release her own CHILD? Here's my take: It was the heat of the moment; the Orphan was seconds away from killing Akane. The thing was just a few steps away from her! It's here that Hari reacted as he should, just like Kagutsuchi rescuing Mai. Hari's spirit body intervened quickly, whether it destroyed or drove the Orphan away, doesn't matter.

So what do you think? How many times have the CHILDs protected the HiME without physically being there? Without visual proof, perhaps you can bring up any implied scenarios where it might of occurred before they had their sealed broken. Comment below and let me know! HiME

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by PostoronnimV on Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:34 am

Interesting topic, Luu high five

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:Did the CHILDs protect the HiME when sealed?

I think, it depends on the CHILD, as it seems they also had their own personality.

Most of the CHILDs protected their HiME, when sealed. For example, like you already pointed, Kagutsuchi protected Mai, even when she was not yet awakened... And in time of awakening, he accepted Mai immediately... Or Yatagarasu who carried Shiho's dark latent wishes, while she too was not yet fully awakened. And Akane's and Sister Yukariko's CHILDs also helped their HiME, when sealed...

But some CHILDs did not protect their HiME, when sealed... furthermore they even attacked their HiME. For example, Duran and Natsuki... when they met, they fought with each other in a deadly battle for supremacy.

A small excerpts from Natsuki no Prelude:
Nagi's statement:
"But since I called him so hastily, there might be Orphans close behind him. They may just eat you, a person who holds so much love, if you make a mistake. Your strength will decide if you can tame him, and decide who is whose master."

And the second excerpt from Duran's POV:
The beast avoided being hit, but the child it was pursuing was not the easy prey that it initially assumed it to be. As the foe started its counter-attack, the beast raised its voice in a menacing growl, different from earlier, to give a clear warning.

Sadly, we have not seen the awakening of every HiME to know whether there were other HiME who fought with their CHILDs... or Natsuki and Duran were the only ones who fought with each other...

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Antiope on Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:53 am

Thank you for the topic, Luu :)

I really didn't remember that scene about Akane and Hari... I'm currently focused on Mai Otome (I'll open a thread about that next week), maybe it's time to watch Mai HiME again  Happy

Concerning Natsuki and Duran, you pointed a very interesting fact, PostoronnimV. I've read Natsuki's Prelude, but I've never fully understood that part. I thought it was because the translation was bad.
But this point is a bit opposing to another fact concerning Natsuki : I've read somewhere on the Web a theory saying that Natsuki survived to the car accident that took her mother's life thanks to Duran, and I find it rather convincing. I can't figure out how a young, weak girl could escape a sinking car, with the pressure of water she couldn't open the doors or break a window.

Nagi said in episode 16 or 17, when he explained all the MIP stuff to the HiME sentai, that if a HiME dies, her Child dies too. So it seems logical that the Childs protect their master even if the HiME in question is not yet awakened.
Nagi also explained in the 16th mini-episode that Orphans and Childs are the same, the only difference is the compatibility with a HiME. If they don't match up with a HiME they became Orphan. So Natsuki and Duran are quite compatible, why would they fight in a deadly battle?

By the way, while watching this mini-episode, it seems to me that the Child get his final shape after contracting with a HiME.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
At the beginning Duran was just a mere dog shadow, then he get the shape that we know. Maybe the final shape is at least partly influenced by the HiME.
And I also always wondered about the Childs' names. Why Natsuki's Child is named after her former dog, while other Childs (like Kiyohime or Kagutsuchi) have mythological names? Who choose the name?
Well, it's off-topic.

So, about Natsuki's and Duran's fight in Natsuki's Prelude, maybe it was not a real fight, but like dogs or wolves do, Duran wanted to test Natsuki's strength or something like that.
I'll read again that part in Natsuki's Prelude when I have time, maybe I'll understand that part differently now.

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by PostoronnimV on Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:35 am

Antiope wrote:But this point is a bit opposing to another fact concerning Natsuki : I've read somewhere on the Web a theory saying that Natsuki survived to the car accident that took her mother's life thanks to Duran, and I find it rather convincing. I can't figure out how a young, weak girl could escape a sinking car, with the pressure of water she couldn't open the doors or break a window.

My take on the matter that it wasn't Duran who saved Natsuki, since Natsuki was seriously injured and it took her whole year to recover.... I think, if Duran had intervened, her wounds would have not been so serious...


And my main argument is that Duran at that time didn't even consider/accept Natsuki as his master before she proved her strength, which happened much later... So why should he save someone whom he did not even consider as his master? Sadly for Natsuki, the main difference between Duran and other CHILDs that before he could accept Natsuki and start to help her, he had to be tamed and shown who is the master... while other CHILDs accepted its masters immediately and even before HiME themselves accepted them... like Kagutsuchi or Vlas...

I believe that Natsuki was saved by the agents of the First District, because they were there when the accident happened, and they needed all of HiME for Carnival... and so, I think, it was them who pulled her out of the water and took her to the hospital...


Antiope wrote:So, about Natsuki's and Duran's fight in Natsuki's Prelude, maybe it was not a real fight, but like dogs or wolves do, Duran wanted to test Natsuki's strength or something like that.

But fights of dogs or wolves for dominance/supremacy are pretty dangerous/life-threatening, right?

This is exactly what Nagi said,
Spoiler:
"But since I called him so hastily, there might be Orphans close behind him. They may just eat you, a person who holds so much love, if you make a mistake. Your strength will decide if you can tame him, and decide who is whose master."

And Duran at first even thought she was easy prey...

Here is another excerpt:
Spoiler:
How much time had passed...?

It seemed like an eternity, yet also just a moment.

The beast howled and leapt. It jumped to tear Natsuki apart with its fangs and claws.

Natsuki shot and dodged.

So to me, their fight was pretty real...

Antiope wrote:that if a HiME dies, her Child dies too. So it seems logical that the Childs protect their master even if the HiME in question is not yet awakened.
But CHILDs did not care much about their own lives otherwise they wouldn't been able to follow so unquestioningly and faithfully some suicidal commands from their masters... So it was more of the matter whether they accepted HiME as their master or not, imo...

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Antiope on Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:05 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:My take on the matter that it wasn't Duran who saved Natsuki, since Natsuki was seriously injured and it took her whole year to recover.... I think, if Duran had intervened, her wounds would have not been so serious...
Regardless of the person who saved Natsuki, she was in the car when it drowned, so she may have been injured during the fall or from the lack of air. Mai was at least 10 meter underwater when Kagutsuchi intervened and saved her. But that's not very important :)

PostoronnimV wrote:And my main argument is that Duran at that time didn't even consider/accept Natsuki as his master before she proved her strength, which happened much later... So why should he save someone whom he did not even consider as his master? Sadly for Natsuki, the main difference between Duran and other CHILDs that before he could accept Natsuki and start to help her, he had to be tamed and shown who is the master... while other CHILDs accepted its masters immediately and even before HiME themselves accepted them... like Kagutsuchi or Vlas...

I believe that Natsuki was saved by the agents of the First District, because they were there when the accident happened, and they needed all of HiME for Carnival... and so, I think, it was them who pulled her out of the water and took her to the hospital...


Antiope wrote:So, about Natsuki's and Duran's fight in Natsuki's Prelude, maybe it was not a real fight, but like dogs or wolves do, Duran wanted to test Natsuki's strength or something like that.

But fights of dogs or wolves for dominance/supremacy are pretty dangerous/life-threatening, right?
[...]
So to me, their fight was pretty real...
I've never thought it could be the First District who saved Natsuki, but it's an interesting aud plausible idea!
Moreover, since Natsuki's mother worked for the First District and wanted to sell them her daughter, maybe they have a particular interest in Natsuki among all HiME.

I've read again that part in Natsuki's Prelude, and now I understand why it was not clear to me before (a bad translation between Child/child). And yeah you're right, their fight seems quite real.
Natsuki seems to be the only HiME who had to tame her Child. Is it because it is a sort of wolf or dog?

And that part in Natsuki's Prelude also confirmed my impression when watching the 16th mini-episode: before being accepted by Natsuki Duran was just an undefined shadow.
Once again, it's different from other HiMEs, Kagutsuchi had his definite shape before Mai accepted him...


PostoronnimV wrote:
Antiope wrote:that if a HiME dies, her Child dies too. So it seems logical that the Childs protect their master even if the HiME in question is not yet awakened.
But CHILDs did not care much about their own lives otherwise they wouldn't been able to follow so unquestioningly and faithfully some suicidal commands from their masters... So it was more of the matter whether they accepted HiME as their master or not, imo...
All Childs do not behave in the same way. Kagutsuchi can be a rebel sometimes (I don't remember where it was exactly but I clearly remember that once he shoot on Mikoto (?) in spite of Mai's order not to do so), Mai says herself that he's not easy to control.
On the other hand, Duran is basically a dog so once he's tamed he obeys Natsuki's order even if shooting on Kiyohime implies that they'll all die.
And there is also Vlas which "ate" his mistress and Ishigami, but we know very few about Vlas and his character.

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:19 pm

You girls covered Natsuki no Prelude nicely. I baited V-Chan purposely, I admit. haha! Being how she worked on translations and corrections of Natsuki no Prelude for us. Antiope also brings up a point with Duran's overall obedience. No matter how powerful he is, he is still a dog in the long run; with dog-like qualities. Or wolf, if you're the picky Natsuki fan. That's why I love reading NNP before rewatching the anime series. Once you go into Mai-HiME and witness how obedient and sound Duran is as a guardian CHILD, it's all a positive result of a violent start. Now, most CHILD awakenings were never shown, but it's safe to assume, for now, that Natsuki had the most difficult time with mastering her CHILD.

A lot of speculation can go into the greatest mystery of all, Shizuru and Kiyohime. I've always believed that Shizuru had already mastered Kiyohime prior to Mai's arrival in episode 1.



^ How and why is clearly her business. Akira Okuzaki

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Antiope on Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:38 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
A lot of speculation can go into the greatest mystery of all, Shizuru and Kiyohime. I've always believed that Shizuru had already mastered Kiyohime prior to Mai's arrival in episode 1.



^ How and why is clearly her business. Akira Okuzaki

I think so too. I don't know if she was awakened as a HiME before or after Natsuki, but I'm sure that before the events of the series, she's been protecting Natsuki since a certain time.

I would LOVE to read a "Shizuru's Prelude"! This girl is such a mystery, it's hard to imagine what's in her head. If one of you knows a good fanfiction about that I'm willing to read it!


EDIT: it's my 100th post on this forum, yay! Happy

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by PostoronnimV on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:12 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:I baited V-Chan purposely, I admit. haha!
=))))

Antiope wrote:I think so too. I don't know if she was awakened as a HiME before or after Natsuki.
Natsuki was the first HiME to be awakened.

From Natsuki no Prelude:
Spoiler:
"Fufu... Soon, my dear Summer Princess. You're the first, Natsuki-chan..." whispered a white-haired boy in a middle school uniform, sitting on a tree branch and smiling smugly.

I also think that Shizuru was awakened before Mai...

Natsuki was awakened shortly before the events of the anime. And the time after her awakening and till the start of the anime has been described in Natsuki no Prelude. So it isn't clear if Shizuru was awakened prior to the events of the anime, since in Natsuki no Prelude wasn't any foreshadowing of someone protecting Natsuki from afar... although I do not think it's a good indicator of when Shizuru was awakened, since she did not interfere in Natsuki's affairs/fights till Ep. 20. She pretty much allowed Natsuki to stand on her own two feet.

But it's clear, given Shizuru's behavior in Mai-HiME Ep. 3, that she was already awakened by the time when Mai's turn has come =))

And, yeah... it would be great if we had "Shizuru's Prelude"...

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Antiope on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:38 pm

PostoronnimV wrote:
Antiope wrote:I think so too. I don't know if she was awakened as a HiME before or after Natsuki.
Natsuki was the first HiME to be awakened.

From Natsuki no Prelude:
Spoiler:
"Fufu... Soon, my dear Summer Princess. You're the first, Natsuki-chan..." whispered a white-haired boy in a middle school uniform, sitting on a tree branch and smiling smugly.
Wow, you have such a memory, to remember such tiny details! Did you search for that detail or did you read Natsuki's Prelude again recently?

PostoronnimV wrote:
Natsuki was awakened shortly before the events of the anime.
If I remember well she was awakened the summer before the events of the anime. I cannot find it in Natsuki's Prelude, I'm too lazy too search more precisely, but she was still in third year of middle school.

PostoronnimV wrote:
And the time after her awakening and till the start of the anime has been described in Natsuki no Prelude. So it isn't clear if Shizuru was awakened prior to the events of the anime, since in Natsuki no Prelude wasn't any foreshadowing of someone protecting Natsuki from afar... although I do not think it's a good indicator of when Shizuru was awakened, since she did not interfere in Natsuki's affairs/fights till Ep. 20.  She pretty much allowed Natsuki to stand on her own two feet.
Yeah maybe but I'm sure Shizuru kept a close eye on her and she was ready to intervene if necessary from the very moment she was awakened. And that's probably while watching her that she learned that Natsuki is a HiME too.
I don't remember in which episode we can see Shizuru's silhouette, when someone (a crazy Mikoto ?) threatened her dear Natsuki? Was it in episode 20?

Anyways, Shizuru would never let Natsuki in danger.


PostoronnimV wrote:
But it's clear, given Shizuru's behavior in Mai-HiME Ep. 3, that she was already awakened by the time when Mai's turn has come =))  
Then again... such a memory! I use to think that I have a good memory, but I don't remember that, what behaviour are you talking of?

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by PostoronnimV on Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:10 am

Antiope wrote:Wow, you have such a memory, to remember such tiny details! Did you search for that detail or did you read Natsuki's Prelude again recently?
No, it's just I translated Natsuki no Prelude into Russian, so... yeah =))

Antiope wrote:If I remember well she was awakened the summer before the events of the anime.
Yeah, Natsuki was awakened the late summer night, when she already was in her third year of middle school and when the second term already started... therefore it appears that she was awakened in early September... cuz in Japan the school year starts in April (first term - ( April - July); second term - (September - December); third term - ( January to March))...  

And Mai came to the academy in May...

So if to make some simple calculations, before the start of the anime Natsuki was already a HiME somewhere about a 8-9 months  =)))

Antiope wrote:Was it in episode 20?
Yup, it's ep 20 =))

Antiope wrote:Yeah maybe but I'm sure Shizuru kept a close eye on her and she was ready to intervene if necessary from the very moment she was awakened.
...
Anyways, Shizuru would never let Natsuki in danger.

I really do not think that Shizuru was such a stalker who always kept trace of Natsuki =))

Some examples:

1) Ep. 4.
While Natsuki hunted for Orphan, Shizuru happily slept and watched pleasant dreams =))))


And later Mai with Mikoto were the ones who saved Natsuki...


2) Ep. 6.
Shizuru was at the wedding, while Natsuki was eavesdropping a conversation between Nagi and Mashiro...


And later it was Midori who saved Mai, Mikoto and Natsuki at the very last moment before they were crushed...


3) Ep. 12
When Natsuki was abducted by Searrs, Mai with Mikoto were the ones who saved her at the very last moment with the help of the necessary information from Yukino and Mashiro...



4) Ep. 13
While Natsuki sneaked into Iwasaka Pharmaceuticals laboratory that guarded by agents of the First District, Shizuru was at the festival...



5) Ep. 15
Shizuru was at the school, when the Searrs Foundation has occupied the academy. While Natsuki was in the other place, playing Sam Fisher =)))

And later Shizuru did not intervene and allowed Natsuki and other HiME to save their school from the invasion...



6) and etc.

So yeah... due to these moments I belive that Shizuru allowed Natsuki to stand on her own two feet and did not interfere in Natsuki's affairs/fights till Ep. 20.

I really think that Shizuru has her own life which does not entirely revolve around Natsuki... Plus, I think she believed in Natsuki's abilities and that Natsuki can take care of herself... after all Natsuki was on her own since age seven...

And I believe turning point for Shizuru, when she began to intervene in Natsuki's affairs, has happened when Nagi told her what fate awaits the HiME... Cuz according to the terms of the Carnival, should remain only one HiME, otherwise the whole world will end, and they both will die with it... And Shizuru can not let Natsuki (or any other HiME, for that matter) defeat Kiyohime, because Natsuki will die... And Shizuru can not defeat Duran, because Natsuki's most important person will die (at that time she still did not know that she is Natsuki's MIP), and I doubt that Shizuru was capable of inflicting such pain on Natsuki, since she truly loves Natsuki...

Such a situation will seriosly shake any psyche... How to cope with the realization that because of you and your feelings your most important person is doomed? And how to cope with the realization that even though you want to protect your most important person more than anything, but it is impossible task to do?

Antiope wrote:Then again... such a memory! I use to think that I have a good memory, but I don't remember that, what behaviour are you talking of?
I mean her conversation with Natsuki =)))

And also... about this ShizNat conversation... I still belive that on Shizuru's part it was an attempt to open up Natsuki. So she, in turn, could also open up to Natsuki and say that she, too, is a HiME ... I think, she wanted to work alongside with Natsuki... But Natsuki had chosen to remain silent, and Shizuru had respected Natsuki's choice...

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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

Post by Antiope on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:43 am

Ahah, I cannot win against you with so much arguments ^^

I don't imagine Shizuru as a stalker, and you're right there's a lot of opportunities where Natsuki could have needed her help but it was Mai and Mikoto instead who saved her, especially when Natsuki was abducted by the Searrs.
I always wondered why Shizuru intervened several times to save Natsuki at the end of the series but not before.
Your explanation about the turning point being the moment when Shizuru learned about HiME's fate is interesting, but not completely satisfying for me. Investigating and fighting orphans is quite a dangerous activity, so Shizuru could have worried more about Natsuki's safety even before knowing about the MIP stuff. Moreover, Shizuru became active after learning that, but if Shizuru fights, it puts her MIP (that is, Natsuki) in jeopardy. On the other hand, while fighting Natsuki doesn't run more risks than previsouly, it's just that she also put her MIP in danger (from the beginning, in Natsuki's Prelude Nagi told her that she would have to risk what's most important to her but she didn't take it seriously, she thought she had nothing she cared about, she didn't know the most important is a person). But Shizuru doesn't know until ep.25 that she's Natsuki's MIP and I believe she thinks about Natsuki's safety before her own.
Well, I don't know if I'm really clear here ^^

I agree that Shizuru has her own life and is not always stalking Natsuki. First of all, Natsuki often skips classes to do her investigations or fight Orphans, not Shizuru. She's a serious student. And even if she can be quite lazy, she also does her job of Kaichou. She was busy dealing with the businessmen during the school festival. When the school was invaded she had to take care of the students while Natsuki and the others dealt with the invasion. When a dormitory burnt, again she had to take care of the students...
I'm sure Shizuru understood quickly that Mai is a HiME, maybe she felt reassured that Natsuki did not fight alone.
But there's also another, more mundane explanation to the fact that Shizuru did not intervene earlier: the suspense! The scriptwriters probably didn't want us to know that Shizuru is a HiME until the end of the series ;-) Personally when I first watched Mai HiME I didn't guess that Shizuru is a HiME, I didn't think of her as an important character, that was a great surprise.

In brief, my main question is: how Shizuru knew that Natsuki was in danger in ep.20, when Natsuki was about to be hit (by Mikoto or Miroky if I remember well) ? And then when Natsuki was assaulted (twice) by Nao?
The romantic explanation would be that Shizuru can feel when her love is in danger, but it's not really convincing ^^ And Kiyohime is not Diana with its spying ability.


PostoronnimV wrote:And Shizuru can not let Natsuki (or any other HiME, for that matter) defeat Kiyohime, because Natsuki will die... And Shizuru can not defeat Duran, because Natsuki's most important person will die (at that time she still did not know that she is Natsuki's MIP), and I doubt that Shizuru was capable of inflicting such pain on Natsuki, since she truly loves Natsuki...

Such a situation will seriosly shake any psyche... How to cope with the realization that because of you and your feelings your most important person is doomed? And how to cope with the realization that even though you want to protect your most important person more than anything, but it is impossible task to do?
Yes it is a hard situation for Shizuru, I can understand that she became crazy.
I don't know what Shizuru thinks of the situation and in particular what she thinks about Natsuki's MIP. She wants to protect Natsuki, which implies that she's not defeated.  Even if she doesn't want Natsuki to suffer from loosing a dear person, she doesn't want her to DIE so between the two evils, one must choose the lesser.

Another question! (we're quite off-topic now but it's relevant with what's above). I always wondered if Natsuki's MIP was Shizuru from the beginning?
Nagi told to the HiME that they would have to risk what's most important to them but he did not clarify that it is a person. He only admitted it in 17th episode when Natsuki highlighted it after Akane's experience. So is the most important thing always a person?
What bothers me is that Mai is considered as the winner although Takumi and Tate died (and although Mikoto was not defeated). Kagutsuchi was never defeated, and we know that if a Child is defeated, the MIP of the HiME dies too but it was never said that if the MIP dies the Child dies too. So I guess that if a HiME's MIP dies before the Child, her power will be bound with her second MIP (who becomes the first one). That's why Kagutsuchi is still alive and Mai is not defeated even after Takumi's and Tate's deaths. But when Kokuyou told Mai that she has nothing left since Takumi and Tate are dead, she replied that she still has her love for them. That's not a good explanation!

Ah, sorry, there's a lot of questions that are not really relevant with the subject of this topic  blush

Antiope
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Re: Did the CHILDs protect all the HiME when sealed?

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