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Not a lot of people like ShizNat

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Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by GAP on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:00 pm

Shizuru doesn't give a crap about Natsuki, despite how hard the writers try to convey she just suffers from misunderstood love. She doesn't care about Natsuki's feelings. She doesn't care about Natsuki's objections. She doesn't care Natsuki obviously doesn't want her to go around committing murders in her name. Yeah, she has some initial regret for taking Natsuki by force... but she doesn't hang onto it for long. She openly admits she sees Natsuki as nothing more than property. She doesn't fight to protect Natsuki; she fights to protect her own selfish, self-proclaimed ownership of Natsuki.

And then Natsuki decides she's cool with it and admits her own returned "love" for Shizuru. What. the. Hell? The closest thing I can compare to is if Misery ended with James Caan confessing his undying love to Kathy Bates, or if Perfect Blue ended with Mima happily putting out for Mr. Stalker Attempted Rapist Guy. And it's not even handled with any sort of dignity. It's passed off as true love rather than Stockholm syndrome. Did Stephenie Meyer have something to do with this?
Natsuki is essentially responding to Shizuru's belief that her love is improper and must be kept inside by saying that when she couldn't trust anyone else, Shizuru's kindness toward her helped her open up again, and she thus considers it a good thing, regardless of how socially "proper" it is, and thus is very fond of Shizuru because she did something so significant for her. It thus essentially solves the problem weighing on Shizuru of whether her love could be returned or if she should even admit it.
Shizuru was arguably sane until Natsuki rejected her; she mostly killed Orphans and blocked one attack from Miroku in Mai's fight against Mikoto as a way of helping Natsuki without Natsuki feeling as though she's imposing on Shizuru, and as "As The Cherry Blossoms Bloom" points out, tried to content herself with helping and being friends with Natsuki. Shizuru even doesn't try to finish off Nao when she rescues Natsuki the first time, and her killing Nao's child then trying to kill Nao the second time is presumably the result of her descent into insanity.

Just as title says, ShizNat isn't beloved by some fans who felt the Shizuru was a villain, rpaist or even a monster. I got that quote form TVTropes and I know it is last resort tog e tthis information from but why do you say to the haters who hate this pairing as well as the series?

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:28 pm

People will always misinterpret Shizuru and Natsuki's relationship in Mai-HiME. It's ultimately a story about one person's love and another person's realization that this other person's love is what comforted her all this time. Natsuki trusted Shizuru with so much; her friendship, access to school records, her trust and so on. Shizuru is at an age where falling in love is the most powerful "sickness" that could ever plague a girl. She never fell in love, never experienced rejection of any kind until Natsuki screamed in terror from Shizuru's touch (post listening to what Yukino said). That was a heartbreaking scene and from what sanity Shizuru had left, she knew she hurt Natsuki in some way. While I don't believe in the rape theory, I do believe Shizuru violated Natsuki's personal space at a very vulnerable period of her life. As a result, Shizuru snapped and reacted violently to everyone around her in order to protect Natsuki from ever being hurt again. One of my own theories point to the Yukino and Haruka confrontation. They pushed Fujino's buttons whether you like it or not. Calling her out, revealing private affairs, Haruka blindly insulting Natsuki when she didn't know the facts, etc. To say Shizuru doesn't care about Natsuki is grasping at straws of the highest magnitude. The best of us lose ourselves when it comes to love. It's the most powerful force on Earth.

If Shizuru thought Natsuki was simply her property and that she didn't matter in the slightest, why did she allow Nao to live? Shizuru listened to Natsuki, despite having the ability and the momentum to shove her aside and kill Nao as planned. I hate to steal/alter a line from a once-great series, but "there is still good in her." Shizuru's claim over Natsuki is not meant to be taken literally. After establishing that she is willing to listen to Natsuki and becomes shattered glass the second Natsuki is hurt, her claim on Natsuki translates as nothing more than "I am in love with you." Just because Shizuru is a refined young lady, she's still a teenager. Her immaturity mixed with despair, led to her path of destruction and she realized it:



^ Mai-HiME fans overlook this scene like it never happened and just go by the scene after it:



"Kanin na" was meant to be tongue and cheek humor before the big battle. So much that Nao and the other HiME didn't find it offensive. Just a "D'oh!" moment. And if they don't find it offense, why should we? This is all my opinion of course, but all arguments against Shizuru x Natsuki feel more like nitpicking than actual points. the person who wrote the TVTropes comment may or may not be anti-ShizNat or Mai-HiME, it doesn't matter. It's his/her opinion, just one that didn't study all aspects of the anime's dark second act.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by HiME-tfln on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:38 am

My biggest problem with this persons rant is how she says that "Shizuru doesn't fight to protect Natsuki". If anything at all that is the thing Shizuru is trying her hardest to do, she knows her love probably won't be returned but that can't stop her feelings of love for Natsuki. And we know from the CD dramas that Nagi told Shizuru the same thing all of the other HiME know, when their Child is defeated the HiME dies. Shizuru was backed into a corner, if she is defeated Natsuki dies so the only way Natsuki can come out of the carnival alive is if Shizuru defeats all of the other HiME and then lets Natsuki defeat her. You could possibly look at Shizuru's supposed rape scene as her trying to get Natsuki to hate her to give her the power to defeat her in the end, not unlike Chikane in Kannazuki no Miko. And not to get off topic, but people seem to do the opposite in that series, glace over the terrible things Chikane does because she did it out of love.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:57 pm

HiME-tfln wrote:My biggest problem with this persons rant is how she says that "Shizuru doesn't fight to protect Natsuki". If anything at all that is the thing Shizuru is trying her hardest to do, she knows her love probably won't be returned but that can't stop her feelings of love for Natsuki. And we know from the CD dramas that Nagi told Shizuru the same thing all of the other HiME know, when their Child is defeated the HiME dies. Shizuru was backed into a corner, if she is defeated Natsuki dies so the only way Natsuki can come out of the carnival alive is if Shizuru defeats all of the other HiME and then lets Natsuki defeat her. You could possibly look at Shizuru's supposed rape scene as her trying to get Natsuki to hate her to give her the power to defeat her in the end, not unlike Chikane in Kannazuki no Miko. And not to get off topic, but people seem to do the opposite in that series, glace over the terrible things Chikane does because she did it out of love.

*applauds*

shizurubaby

Ding! Ding! Ding! Chikane's actions were overlooked because she isn't a quote, "overrated" character. What Kel is trying to say is that most people either missed the point entirely of Shizuru's actions or they just don't like Shizuru. Rape is a very serious offense, I don't think even Natsuki would forgive anyone who would do that her. But guess what? It didn't turn out to be the case. Yukino's inability to explain what actually happened was flipped around into something blown way out of proportion.


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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Krystal of Nol on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 pm

GAP wrote:why do you say to the haters who hate this pairing as well as the series?

fack them!

Besides that you guys say it all Shizuru Fujino

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Magus Phantalus on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:16 am

Although I agree with your annoyance at comments like that GAP as I frequent tvtropes far too much I must say that I think this thread's name may be a little misleading. There seems to be an overwhelming support for our beloved shiznat and I shall give two examples of this.

1. The first is the sheer amount of shiznat art and fanfiction the amount of shiznat pics on my ipod alone is over two thousand and I typed in shiznat on fanfiction.net and got over like one thousand four hundred or something and that's not even including other sites' fanfiction.

2. And perhaps the most shocking is the doujinshi scene most doujins in my experience for a show are heterosexual. Most My-Hime/Otome doujins are pure shiznat(both yuri and futa) something doropanda tours undoubtedly had a huge hand in but there are a few yuri doujins of shiznat out there that weren't made by them.

There is no shortage of support for shiznat just shortsighted people who tend to write Shizuru off as selfish.

If you want a cause to stand for I invite you to join me in standing against the Mai Otome manga.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:48 pm

I've always said ShizNat is the greatest attraction within our fandom and the yuri community in general. We've had members in the past that were so fed up with ShizNat, they created forums and groups that banned ShizNat. Without all due respect, they were unsuccessful. Mai-Multiverse welcomes everything from the popular ShizNat to the virtually invisible bottom-tier secondary characters like Yayoi. ShizNat gives the casual fan a chance to discover the other characters, so why dismiss them?

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The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:43 am

Ahem...

Haters gonna hate.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:45 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:Ahem...

Haters gonna hate.


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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:59 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

That's a really sarcastic clap?? XD

I'll expand on it a little. Everything has already been said by far more eloquent people (or I hope they are people) than myself. All the hate for the show or the pairing is just petty projection at play here.
When I was a toddler I learned that it's human nature to downgrade something or someone to make themselves feel better and superior. Because it's not about the show, or the character! They like a different scenario and instead of showing their support to it they choose to sabotage the one they don't agree with because it gives them a weird sense of satisfaction on feeling superior to them. And trust me, even if all the arguments they are throwing against Shizuru (which seems to be the main problem) were to be solved they would find new ones.
There are respectful people that simply have better things to do than discuss personal taste and then there are bored people who really need a life and stop butting in on personal preferences of those around them. Don't like? Don't watch.

As Ditta Von Tease said: You can be the ripest, juiciest peach in the world! There will always be people who simply don't like peaches!!
Stop dissing the peach! I don't like peaches either but I don't go around pointing out flaws in it! I just praise the other fruits!! My opinions on the peach are that I don't like the taste! Juice and ice tea are fine! Everything else I can't handle! But I can recognize how it's healthy for people and if they like it they should have it every chance they get!

In conclusion: Haters gonna hate. Not because they have a different opinion, but because they see an opportunity to make themselves appear to be superior.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:20 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:
That's a really sarcastic clap?? XD

XD It was different than all the other claps on tumblr. I don't disagree with your statement btw, I just couldn't resist using that. Razz

In general, what you said was accurate. Don't like ShizNat or the Mai-Series in general? There's the door. It's a pretty door. :'3

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:06 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
In general, what you said was accurate. Don't like ShizNat or the Mai-Series in general? There's the door. It's a pretty door. :'3

It is!!!! I lurve our door! It's filled with rainbows and unicorns and cotton candy and it kicks you in the arse when you get out.

But while on topic, there are things in Mai Hime I don't agree with as well. But it doesn't give anyone an excuse to disrespect others. Just discuss it openly without trying to shove your opinions down other people's throats. You know... Like religion!

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:30 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:It is!!!! I lurve our door! It's filled with rainbows and unicorns and cotton candy and it kicks you in the arse when you get out.

But while on topic, there are things in Mai Hime I don't agree with as well. But it doesn't give anyone an excuse to disrespect others. Just discuss it openly without trying to shove your opinions down other people's throats. You know... Like religion!

:'3 It was foretold in legend that these unicorns fart the candy and jizz Skittles~

LOL Mai-Multiverse worships and celebrates the characters the fandom is based on, but we are no religion. Aside from perhaps our Midorism and Fujinoism. My place is a community first. If you love the series, you're in.

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Magus Phantalus on Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:50 pm

The uhh... the peach bit made me smile. I firmly believe Shizuru belongs with Natsuki and am currently too tired to come up with a compelling argument as to why although I probably already have somewhere on another thread.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:00 pm

Magus Phantalus wrote:The uhh... the peach bit made me smile.


Get used to it, The Cap is full of them. Shizuru Fujino

Magus Phantalus wrote:I firmly believe Shizuru belongs with Natsuki and am currently too tired to come up with a compelling argument as to why although I probably already have somewhere on another thread.

You already had your say, I believe. :p No rebuttal from me. ShizNation 4EVER.

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The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

Luu Sky Sapphire
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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:47 am

I have peaches~~ Pretty peaches, fuzzy peaches, succulent juicy peaches, fresh sweet peaches! Come get your fill!!! I'm giving it all away~~

Magus Phantalus wrote:
I firmly believe Shizuru belongs with Natsuki and am currently too tired to come up with a compelling argument as to why although I probably already have somewhere on another thread.

I believe that's all our positions as well. We have reached that stage where we only have to say "Cuz I said so!!!" or "Just because." or if we are politically correct just copy paste the link for the post we made so long ago somewhere in this forum that explains our point of view.

I am interested in what the topic starter has to say though. And someone who doesn't like Shiznat as well. I always learn something as well as am able to strengthen my point of view with countering friendly banter.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:14 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:I believe that's all our positions as well. We have reached that stage where we only have to say "Cuz I said so!!!" or "Just because." or if we are politically correct just copy paste the link for the post we made so long ago somewhere in this forum that explains our point of view.

I am interested in what the topic starter has to say though. And someone who doesn't like Shiznat as well. I always learn something as well as am able to strengthen my point of view with countering friendly banter.

I dunno, it thrills me when someone disagrees with me. My internet troll isn't activated or anything, so you can put away the Trollface U MAD!?s. It's just great how different we feel about a series. Or in this case, certain characters within that series. It's a huge boost to my ego in the end. Whenever I have a friendly "debate" with someone, I do not aim to defeat others. I aim to defeat myself. :3 If that makes sense. Learning from other people's views is more challenging than just saying they're wrong "BECAUSE!"

:) I respect anyone's views on ShizNat regardless, I know not everyone will like them.

ShizNat2

^ But come on, what's not to like!?

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:48 pm

You know... I can usually play the devil's advocate but after my massive text I started countering my own points so easily that I just gave up and erased it!

HOWEVER, I will point out the main points I hear from people who don't fancy Shiznat anyway:

Shizuru got close and took advantage of Natuski for her own perving reasons!
Shizuru killed people left and right.
Shizuru raped Natsuki in the tea house!
Shizuru flirts with everybody and only wants Natsuki for sex.
Shizuru is bat shit crazy, she lies and cheats to get her way.
Natsuki isn't gay.
Natsuki doesn't understand love. Not even in a friendship way.
Natsuki never confided in Shizuru about her reasons so she doesn't have her in high esteem.
Natsuki has a a bigger connection with Nao and was willing to lay her life to protect her from Shizuru.
Natsuki confronted Shizuru after regaining Duran to kill her cuz she was freaked out by her.
Natsuki has Stockholm Syndrome.

I am out of reasons. While I do like Shiznat I can easily have these ladies frolicking about with other characters. My end game will always be Shiznat though.
Canon is nice but fighting for love in non-canon pairings is awesome and many times one wild fantastic journey if well characterized. Pair them up however you want!
It has come to my attention that people will pick up one of these reasons, misread it, take it out of context and ignore everything else the anime shows us about these two. Warping the facts just because it's convenient doesn't make up for a very good story though.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:12 pm

That entire list is textbook anti-ShizNat. :) The kind of statements made by someone who doesn't understand Shizuru and Natsuki during their Mai-HiME run. They're from someone who is TIRED, and I do mean SICK AND TIRED of ShizNat dominating everything from fanfiction.net to tumblr. It's happened a lot from members of this forum. I wish I had screen capped their praise of ShizNat when they first registered with us. The momentum is shifted when someone says those magic words..."ShizNat is overrated because...*insert reason from your list*.

At best, I can understand the CHOICE in not preferring Shizuru and Natsuki. For the record, this is our series. We can crack ship anybody we want. 8) Only...

Natsuki has a a bigger connection with Nao and was willing to lay her life to protect her from Shizuru.

...if you don't use that reason. Natsuki protected Nao for a pretty clear reason. Aside from relating to Nao not trusting easy, it's more the fact that Natsuki didn't want to see anymore blood shed. Can you blame her?

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:05 am

I don't think any of those reasons can actually be applied anywhere. They are at best observations taken out of context.

How... HOW can anybody be sick of Shiznat??? Specially if they were a fan before??? Is there a trick?? I'd like to get rid of some otps!!! GIMME THE SECRET FORMULA!!!!!

However I notice people who don't like Shiznat tend to make Shizuru the one unworthy of Natsuki and never the other way around. Why's that? I can see it form the show's point of view but I find it curious!

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by GAP on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:59 pm

I am not that much into ShizNat but that is only because I am not into pairings or shipping in general.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:50 pm

GAP wrote:I am not that much into ShizNat but that is only because I am not into pairings or shipping in general.

So you admire and follow these characters as individuals, rather than care who they date or whatnot?

However I notice people who don't like Shiznat tend to make Shizuru the one unworthy of Natsuki and never the other way around. Why's that? I can see it form the show's point of view but I find it curious!

Again, Cap, go back to your list. In their eyes, Shizuru is a monster, liar, rapist, etc. Natsuki is squeaky clean and too good for someone like her. Yeah, um, Natsuki is anything but perfect. I'm one of Natsuki's biggest fans and proclaim her the most attractive character in our fandom and STILL, she isn't perfect - character-wise. Her and Shizuru's flaws clashed so nicely within the context of the story, that I can see them together and I'm sticking to that. Arika Yumemiya

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by CaptainVonCookie on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:35 am

GAP wrote:I am not that much into ShizNat but that is only because I am not into pairings or shipping in general.

Now this is refreshing! I like Shiznat but I see the show as a whole, and the story and plot are enough to keep me a loyal fan.
But to keep to the topic. As individual characters that interact with one another, do you think their connection and their arch added to the story or they could have been handled as separate people with nothing to do with each other?

In my opinion that would have removed a lot of depth and character development. As well as hindered the story greatly.

Her and Shizuru's flaws clashed so nicely within the context of the story, that I can see them together and I'm sticking to that.

Luu, I simply hate Mary Sues. Flaws that can make a fictional character human in front of my eyes is what makes me connect to the story. That was just a perfect way to explain Shiznat! high five

I don't think Natsuki is the most attractive one though. Nor Shizuru actually.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by PostoronnimV on Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:22 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:However I notice people who don't like Shiznat tend to make Shizuru the one unworthy of Natsuki and never the other way around. Why's that? I can see it form the show's point of view but I find it curious!
I, by the way, noticed this tendency too... And it always surprises me, when people make Shizuru a monster, unworthy person and make Natsuki a pure, innocent and naive... A feeling, that the people from this category watched Mai-Hime very selectively, skipping some scenes or watched only episodes 22-26. Even though I love Natsuki dearly, but she is very-very-very far from being a pure, innocent and naive... I even think, that Natsuki is the one in the pair, who is fundamentally screwed up in the head, imo.

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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:07 pm

CaptainVonCookie wrote:Luu, I simply hate Mary Sues. Flaws that can make a fictional character human in front of my eyes is what makes me connect to the story. That was just a perfect way to explain Shiznat! high five

high five

Off topic for a second, but your statement makes me wonder why people think Bella Swan of Twilight fame is a Mary Sue. Kristen Stewart, to me, is one big giant flaw. ;p

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The law of physics: Whenever there's this much gay in one room, Shizuru manifests!
When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

Luu Sky Sapphire
Administrator. The Showstopper. The Headliner. The Main Event. The Icon. Mr. Mai-Series.
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Re: Not a lot of people like ShizNat

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