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Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

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Did Shizuru really rape and/or touch the sleeping Natsuki?

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Total Votes : 29

Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:06 pm

IlliterateKoi wrote:I wouldn't buy that face if I were Nao either. It's not exactly an apology that says 'I am sincerely sorry for killing your mother' is it? Razz

:'3 Did Shizuru know about Nao's mother? I don't remember that! Then again, Nao screamed "MAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!1!" so loudly that the entire Fuuka region must of heard it. Akira Okuzaki

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by IlliterateKoi on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:40 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
IlliterateKoi wrote:I wouldn't buy that face if I were Nao either. It's not exactly an apology that says 'I am sincerely sorry for killing your mother' is it? Razz

:'3 Did Shizuru know about Nao's mother? I don't remember that! Then again, Nao screamed "MAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!1!" so loudly that the entire Fuuka region must of heard it. Akira Okuzaki

Even if Shizuru didn't know about Nao's mother, she knew that she had killed Nao's MIP. Apologising for that with a big grin on your face isn't really acceptable, in my opinion. I am not a fan of that scene :3

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:39 pm

Just saying I didn't hear Nao apologize for causing events to lead to Takumi's death and yet no one seems to calling her out on it. You know just saying.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Kuga Natsuki on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:32 am

Magus Phantalus wrote:Just saying I didn't hear Nao apologize for causing events to lead to Takumi's death and yet no one seems to calling her out on it. You know just saying.
I just don't get why Shizuru gets all or most of the blame ^_^; Iirc, the only persons who apologized sincerely was Mai to Mikoto and Shizuru to Natsuki. I can't really recall anyone else apologizing, like Nao and Yukino.

Nao did start the big catastrophe ^_^; One thing led to another, so to speak. She injured Natsuki > Shizuru abandons her duties to take care the love of her life (she kinda had no choice, right?), and it was swallowing Shizuru's soul more and more > Yukino spies > Shizuru goes insane > Nao kidnaps Natsuki AGAIN. It was the rule to fight each other and kill the Childs, so Shizuru did what had to be done, no? I mean, if even no one did a thing, Earth would've been destroyed.

Blahblahblah, all and all, the entire situation was win/lose-win/lose. I mean wouldn't YOU go batshit insane if you had to deal with the Festival? @_@ I could make an essay of all the faults and truths in the show Akira Okuzaki

Let's not forget that Shizuru is a sarcastic troll



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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by GAP on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:21 am

Well regardless who actually done it, what is done is done and it is up Sunrise/Fans to figure out the consequences of their actions.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:43 am

Nymphetamine wrote:Blahblahblah, all and all, the entire situation was win/lose-win/lose. I mean wouldn't YOU go batshit insane if you had to deal with the Festival? @_@ I could make an essay of all the faults and truths in the show Akira Okuzaki

Well, let's say I know the out of the anime already. I would of tried to murder Reito/Obsidian Lord first to see if that takes any immediate effect. If that doesn't work, it's clear the Festival and murder of the other HiME had to take place. No matter what. So we'll all come to agreement to kill each other and guarantee revival by Mashiro later. Simple, ne? Dance

Just saying I didn't hear Nao apologize for causing events to lead to Takumi's death and yet no one seems to calling her out on it. You know just saying.

More like not apologizing for threatening to end his life. Sure, she set things in motion, but that was unplanned and all on Mikoto to me.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by IlliterateKoi on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:41 pm

I think Shizuru gets all the flack for her actions simply because she is such a popular character. Nao isn't as popular, so people don't tend to discuss her involvement in things quite as much.

Also, saying that Nao started it all is incorrect -- she was set up and Natsuki attacked her, which led to the events that followed. Yes she may have acted rashly and gone a bit over board in her attempts to get revenge...but as you have applied to Shizuru's case, the Festival played with all of the HiME's emotions and drove them to do things they wouldn't normally have done.

...I have noticed that whenever these kinds of topics come up I usually end up making myself sound like I'm not on Shizuru's side, I have no idea why I do that .__.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by *BlackRose* on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:49 pm

IlliterateKoi wrote:
...I have noticed that whenever these kinds of topics come up I usually end up making myself sound like I'm not on Shizuru's side, I have no idea why I do that .__.
you sound like your on shizuru's side my dear koi koi

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Kuga Natsuki on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:22 pm

You're just stating logic, Koi... If it is logic Natsuki Kruger2

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by *BlackRose* on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:50 pm

Koi knows of logic?

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by ookamidesu on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:01 pm

IlliterateKoi wrote:
Also, saying that Nao started it all is incorrect -- she was set up and Natsuki attacked her, which led to the events that followed.

...by the evil nun! =____=

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by *BlackRose* on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:10 pm

ookamidesu wrote:
IlliterateKoi wrote:
Also, saying that Nao started it all is incorrect -- she was set up and Natsuki attacked her, which led to the events that followed.

...by the evil nun! =____=
But wasn't the nun being controlled by the art teacher I can't really remember

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by ookamidesu on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:12 pm

*BlackRose* wrote:
ookamidesu wrote:
IlliterateKoi wrote:
Also, saying that Nao started it all is incorrect -- she was set up and Natsuki attacked her, which led to the events that followed.

...by the evil nun! =____=
But wasn't the nun being controlled by the art teacher I can't really remember

Yup. He was manipulating her... thinking that he could use her to take control of the carnival... er... festival. Whichever. Silly man...

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by *BlackRose* on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:15 pm

ookamidesu wrote:
*BlackRose* wrote:
ookamidesu wrote:
IlliterateKoi wrote:
Also, saying that Nao started it all is incorrect -- she was set up and Natsuki attacked her, which led to the events that followed.

...by the evil nun! =____=
But wasn't the nun being controlled by the art teacher I can't really remember

Yup. He was manipulating her... thinking that he could use her to take control of the carnival... er... festival. Whichever. Silly man...
So then most of this happen because of him

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by GAP on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:42 am

I looked at this scene in both version after looking at the TVTropes 'Values Dissonance' page, I will quote here since it actually explains better than I can anyway:

An interesting case is that of Shizuru Fujino of Mai-HiME. Fan opinion on her seems divided after her Face Heel Turn over her feelings being rejected, but the image portrayed in the same scene seems to depend on background. In Japan, Shizuru is confronted for three major breaches of behavior: abandoning her position as student council president to take care of Natsuki, being a Schoolgirl Lesbian, and "taking advantage" of Natsuki as she slept. The first is a dereliction of a duty Shizuru willingly took up, which is a big thing in Japan's duty-centered society. The second is a sign of immaturity, as detailed in Schoolgirl Lesbians, implying that Shizuru is acting childishly by pursuing this kind of thing at her age. The third is both true and false: while Shizuru did kiss Natsuki while she was sleeping, the greater implication of This Or That going on was incorrect and Natsuki's misunderstanding/jumping to conclusions. Nonetheless, stealing Natsuki's Sacred First Kiss without her consent is a serious faux pas. However, in many a Western market(except Italy), Shizuru's status is more ambiguous. The first charge of dereliction of duty seems rather frivolous, as most would consider saving a friend from potentially life-threatening or major injury to be more important than student council duties. The second is similarly frivolous to most, with Shizuru's biggest offense being Can Not Spit It Out. The third, again, is generally misinterpreted to imply that Shizuru actually did rape Natsuki, but the concept of kissing her while she's asleep is not considered a big deal. This ironically leads to a conflicting view of Haruka who is accusing Shizuru. Either she's being a dutiful, proper moral standard calling her rival out on her misbehavior, or she's being a cruel, oversensitive shrew blowing the whole thing out of proportion. There's her later snap and killing spree, but even that's a debate for another page.

* Interestingly enough, Yukino and Haruka call out Shizuru on different issues in this scene. Haruka is the one who complains about Shizuru abandoning her duties, and when Shizuru merely replies that she will give up her position to Haruka, Yukino complains that Shizuru has not properly acknowledged Haruka as a rival despite her efforts. Yukino then mentions that she saw Shizuru kiss Natsuki as she slept, as well as something else earlier (although the word "rape" is never used). After Shizuru mocks Yukino for voyeuristic tendencies, Haruka slaps Shizuru and then says she and Natsuki are disgusting for acting in such a way with each other (by contrast, Yukino is implied to have an un-admitted and most likely unrequited Schoolgirl Lesbians crush on Haruka), and then Shizuru slaps her in response and says that it was only something she did on her own. One has to wonder why Haruka would blame Natsuki if Yukino is correct that it was rape, unless both have different ideas about what happened. Compare the following quotes.

Yukino: I saw what you did, like how you kissed her back there. I saw what you did to Natsuki as she slept. How could you do that, to someone who trusts you as a friend?
Haruka: Two women behaving like that with each other, you're filthy. Both you ANDnote
Emphasized in the dub
Natsuki Kuga!

* If an English-speaking viewer has seen only the dub (in which Shizuru has a cultured Southern accent) one gets the impression that her descent into Psycho Lesbianism is more a result of "I'm a lesbian, and all lesbians are psychos, so that means I'm a psycho" kind of deal, with the conservative implications of her accent accounted for. Note that Japan has some slightly...dated views on homosexuality, as discussed under Schoolgirl Lesbians. Also see Mai Otome, which takes place in a world where lesbians are much more accepted, and Shizuru is a significantly more sane character—as well as a shameless flirt.

There is plenty of differing values displayed in that one scene alone and it gives some interesting insights into the characters themselves. We have Haruka who calls out Shizuru for abandoning her duties, Yukino who calls out Shizuru for not acknowledging Haruka as a rival or equal and if you noticed from the quote, it was Shizuru who stole Natsuki's first kiss. I wish I could explains as well as the person who wrote it did but you can see the values dissonance on this scene, Japan is a duty oriented so Shizuru abandoning her duties would be frowned upon but in the West, Shizuru gets some praise for saving her friend from Nao. On both sides on the other hand, the teahouse scene itself is ambiguous but the dub more or less implies that Shizuru 'raped' Natsuki when she could have imagined the whole thing. Just as the quote I am only being general as it may not apply to everyone but ti is sort of interesting how this scene was portrayed by various cultures especially Japan.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Kuga Natsuki on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:26 am

GAP wrote:I looked at this scene in both version after looking at the TVTropes 'Values Dissonance' page, I will quote here since it actually explains better than I can anyway:

An interesting case is that of Shizuru Fujino of Mai-HiME. Fan opinion on her seems divided after her Face Heel Turn over her feelings being rejected, but the image portrayed in the same scene seems to depend on background. In Japan, Shizuru is confronted for three major breaches of behavior: abandoning her position as student council president to take care of Natsuki, being a Schoolgirl Lesbian, and "taking advantage" of Natsuki as she slept. The first is a dereliction of a duty Shizuru willingly took up, which is a big thing in Japan's duty-centered society. The second is a sign of immaturity, as detailed in Schoolgirl Lesbians, implying that Shizuru is acting childishly by pursuing this kind of thing at her age. The third is both true and false: while Shizuru did kiss Natsuki while she was sleeping, the greater implication of This Or That going on was incorrect and Natsuki's misunderstanding/jumping to conclusions. Nonetheless, stealing Natsuki's Sacred First Kiss without her consent is a serious faux pas. However, in many a Western market(except Italy), Shizuru's status is more ambiguous. The first charge of dereliction of duty seems rather frivolous, as most would consider saving a friend from potentially life-threatening or major injury to be more important than student council duties. The second is similarly frivolous to most, with Shizuru's biggest offense being Can Not Spit It Out. The third, again, is generally misinterpreted to imply that Shizuru actually did rape Natsuki, but the concept of kissing her while she's asleep is not considered a big deal. This ironically leads to a conflicting view of Haruka who is accusing Shizuru. Either she's being a dutiful, proper moral standard calling her rival out on her misbehavior, or she's being a cruel, oversensitive shrew blowing the whole thing out of proportion. There's her later snap and killing spree, but even that's a debate for another page.

* Interestingly enough, Yukino and Haruka call out Shizuru on different issues in this scene. Haruka is the one who complains about Shizuru abandoning her duties, and when Shizuru merely replies that she will give up her position to Haruka, Yukino complains that Shizuru has not properly acknowledged Haruka as a rival despite her efforts. Yukino then mentions that she saw Shizuru kiss Natsuki as she slept, as well as something else earlier (although the word "rape" is never used). After Shizuru mocks Yukino for voyeuristic tendencies, Haruka slaps Shizuru and then says she and Natsuki are disgusting for acting in such a way with each other (by contrast, Yukino is implied to have an un-admitted and most likely unrequited Schoolgirl Lesbians crush on Haruka), and then Shizuru slaps her in response and says that it was only something she did on her own. One has to wonder why Haruka would blame Natsuki if Yukino is correct that it was rape, unless both have different ideas about what happened. Compare the following quotes.

Yukino: I saw what you did, like how you kissed her back there. I saw what you did to Natsuki as she slept. How could you do that, to someone who trusts you as a friend?
Haruka: Two women behaving like that with each other, you're filthy. Both you ANDnote
Emphasized in the dub
Natsuki Kuga!

* If an English-speaking viewer has seen only the dub (in which Shizuru has a cultured Southern accent) one gets the impression that her descent into Psycho Lesbianism is more a result of "I'm a lesbian, and all lesbians are psychos, so that means I'm a psycho" kind of deal, with the conservative implications of her accent accounted for. Note that Japan has some slightly...dated views on homosexuality, as discussed under Schoolgirl Lesbians. Also see Mai Otome, which takes place in a world where lesbians are much more accepted, and Shizuru is a significantly more sane character—as well as a shameless flirt.

There is plenty of differing values displayed in that one scene alone and it gives some interesting insights into the characters themselves. We have Haruka who calls out Shizuru for abandoning her duties, Yukino who calls out Shizuru for not acknowledging Haruka as a rival or equal and if you noticed from the quote, it was Shizuru who stole Natsuki's first kiss. I wish I could explains as well as the person who wrote it did but you can see the values dissonance on this scene, Japan is a duty oriented so Shizuru abandoning her duties would be frowned upon but in the West, Shizuru gets some praise for saving her friend from Nao. On both sides on the other hand, the teahouse scene itself is ambiguous but the dub more or less implies that Shizuru 'raped' Natsuki when she could have imagined the whole thing. Just as the quote I am only being general as it may not apply to everyone but ti is sort of interesting how this scene was portrayed by various cultures especially Japan.
Because of all the conflict Mai-HiME practically gave us, one of my theories is that Sunrise was being subtle and just wanted to mess with our heads Akira Okuzaki It's pretty obvious that Sunrise wanted either answer (or any unique answer), so there's no real answer on what actually happened, which kind of brings the debates to nothing, right? But hell, it's fun Shiho Huit

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by The Fire Stirring Ruby on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:44 am

In my honest opinion, I am not sure what really happened there.

People could have different interpretations about the scene in question. It can be sexual assault or rape, or simple undressing to get more comfort, et cetera.

The thing is, we could only see silhouette movements on the episode. Yukino seeing the whole thing happen kept us on the dark. It can be made up, or simply the truth. Using Diana to keep surveillance on Shizuru was a smart move on Yukino's part, but it backfired (?) when the latter found them on her court yard.

Personally, I am horrified if something did really happen there. But, it wasn't even clarified by anyone (which includes Yukino and Natsuki). Clearly, this was ambiguous.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by IlliterateKoi on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:04 pm

GAP wrote:I looked at this scene in both version after looking at the TVTropes 'Values Dissonance' page, I will quote here since it actually explains better than I can anyway:

[...]
Under spoiler because I don't think it's really all that relevant...I'm just rambling about translations .__.

Spoiler:
Yeah, I've read this before, it's pretty interesting to see the difference between Western and Japanese views on the matter.

I've never watched more than a couple of scenes from the dub version, so I can't really comment on it. But, if you've watched the anime with subs from a few different places, you'll have noticed the differences in the way the words have been translated. The most prominent example I can think of is the choice of either the word 'like' or 'love'. Which one is used greatly depends on the translators own opinions/views of the characters and/or the scene itself.

I suppose the same logic would apply to the teahouse scene, whereby the translator can make it sound more/less likely that Shizuru raped Natsuki, based upon their own interpretation of the dialogue. Now, I don't understand Japanese, therefore my opinions were formed by the subtitles I read while first watching the anime. People who watched the dub version first will no doubt have had their opinions shaped by that translation.

It's news to me that the dub may have implied more than the subs did, and I'd be interested to know how many of the people who believe that Shizuru raped Natsuki watched the dub first.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Kuga Natsuki on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:02 pm

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:In my honest opinion, I am not sure what really happened there.

People could have different interpretations about the scene in question. It can be sexual assault or rape, or simple undressing to get more comfort, et cetera.

The thing is, we could only see silhouette movements on the episode. Yukino seeing the whole thing happen kept us on the dark. It can be made up, or simply the truth. Using Diana to keep surveillance on Shizuru was a smart move on Yukino's part, but it backfired (?) when the latter found them on her court yard.

Personally, I am horrified if something did really happen there. But, it wasn't even clarified by anyone (which includes Yukino and Natsuki). Clearly, this was ambiguous.
Which is why I said that Sunrise was clearly messing with our heads ^_^ We'll never know the real answer Akira Okuzaki

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:21 pm

The Fire Stirring Ruby wrote:In my honest opinion, I am not sure what really happened there.

People could have different interpretations about the scene in question. It can be sexual assault or rape, or simple undressing to get more comfort, et cetera.

The thing is, we could only see silhouette movements on the episode. Yukino seeing the whole thing happen kept us on the dark. It can be made up, or simply the truth. Using Diana to keep surveillance on Shizuru was a smart move on Yukino's part, but it backfired (?) when the latter found them on her court yard.

Personally, I am horrified if something did really happen there. But, it wasn't even clarified by anyone (which includes Yukino and Natsuki). Clearly, this was ambiguous.

*claps*

I'm proud of Ruby for not only seeing things from a neutral prospective, but also labeling the entire sequence as ambiguous. If Sunrise directors admit it was meant to be like that, my mouth will not drop to the floor. :)

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Bluholic711 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:36 pm

I can't really tell what was going on there either. Did it seem like Natsuki was feeling a little weaker than normal in the same episode. She collapsed in the rain and needed medical attention.

Maybe Shizuru planted some weak drugs in her tea to prevent her from activating her Hime powers even further?

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:39 pm

Bluholic711 wrote:Maybe Shizuru planted some weak drugs in her tea to prevent her from activating her Hime powers even further?

Now that's a stretch! If Shizuru did do that, Sunrise would of explored it. For the most part, the Mai-HiME anime did a good job at explaining it's character's motives and actions. Natsuki being unable to summon Duran and her Element was a result of being emotional destroyed by the truth John Smith and his nose gave her earlier.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

Post by Bluholic711 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:46 pm

Yes, I knew that. Just a strange thought.

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Re: Behind the infamous teahouse door scene - What do YOU think what happened?

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