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Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:07 am

BubuzukeOnna wrote:I find that the stories with the most depth are the ones in which no one is truly a villain or a hero. Where the lines are blurred, and there are only people - some more flawed than others, but all of them flawed.

Shades of grey. Modern thinking does seem to complicate what a villain and a hero truly is, but there's a reason for that. It's a bit of slight of hand trickery when a story may present itself as good vs. evil and suddenly the person you're rooting for turns out to be a train wreck on the inside. In return, the person you're jeering at turns out to be the most misunderstood character in the entire series.

The Mai-HiME series itself is so grounded in reality that an absent (and traditional) black-and-white storyline is perfectly justified. If they wanna have men beating up women, have racism or homophobia, discussions of rape (ala what Yukino accused Shizuru of); since there's no *true* good and evil in the world, especially in the world of modern day animation, anything's allowable. Good and evil is based on perception. Of course, a story with depth as BubuzukeOnna pointed out, will offer you such treats.

I enjoyed your insight BubuzukeOnna, honestly it's just a more well organized version of my own opinion on the matter. I wish I could throw a rebuttal for the sake of fun, but our replies here are all centered around perspective and we see eye to eye here. Thank you for sharing. :)



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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:24 am

@Spiral I wasn't meaning to sound as if I intended to argue with you, and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I was only sharing my own opinion on the subject as well - my view of her role as an antagonist but not necessarily a villain, and what gives a story depth for me personally.

@Magus As mentioned above, she's certainly an antagonist. I find there's a distinction between antagonist and villain though that perhaps no one shares with me. That's perfectly fine, if everyone thought like I do then the world would be a boring place indeed.

The problems that usually arise for me when enjoying a discussion about a character like Shizuru - an antagonist or villain - is that many have this "off-switch" when it comes to this type. "They're a horrible person, there-for they're a terrible character - unworthy of my consideration in either regard"

When a character is displayed to be human but also to have a deeply disturbed conscience or engages in what most people consider to be immoral action - my wheels start turning. I think, "oh my, how did this happen? Interesting" Someone somewhere once said, "Even the darkest of dark lords had a mother."

@Luu Thanks, as with my thoughts on Shizuru, your thoughts on the gradient nature of "good and evil" and it's function in story-telling are similar.


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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:06 pm

Wow guys. Make me have to actually READ shit. ;D

So, here's more of an addition from moi~

I agree and disagree with some stuff.

Disagree: Woah Demon, Yukino a villian? No no no. A topic for another thread, but she stopped herself before attacking Mai because she KNEW Haruka would not desire that. Mikoto just happened to stop by and... chaos. xD But if anyone wants to have THAT discussion with me we could make a thread about her. xD

Sidenote: Anyone else noticing all these threads are mixing together? We're discussing her victim or villain status in the hated thread? Lol, we're all awesome~

Shizuru Fujino did exactly what I would do in her shoes. I, personally, can't hate her for that once I figured that out. Also, I woulda destroyed 1st District as soon as I got the chance without going off the deep end. Think what you will, but I saw that as heroic. Maybe I am odd?

Also, we seem to neglect that Sunrise DID make ShizNat canon. I do believe the Otome pairings count for HiME as well, but that is my interpretation.

On the front of the manga: Fuck. The. MANGA! It is not at ALL canon for Anime-verse and, frankly, was awful and twisted the characters personalities to damn much. I could fume more... but yeah.

Natsuki and Tate? That doesn't need to be explained to... how does that even... no. Just... no. xD

I am kinda unsure where to start replying, so I will say this again:

Maybe it isn't Shizuru they hate, but, like me, they hate the fan-version of Shizuru because fans can/will twist and manipulate characters. A lot.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MissSoccerNinja on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:44 pm

BubuzukeOnna wrote:Expository information for Shizuru was very contextual. Unlike with many of the characters, we weren't given monologues or back story on her feelings and motivations early in the series. Probably, we were meant to pick up on the many more subtle clues given - or not, and be completely surprised by the turn of events.

There were indeed, however, clues for those who were paying attention. I can't say if these were more difficult for a western audience to pick up on or not, but regardless they are there.

Her demeanor when interacting with adults and businesspersons indicates that she has a level of etiquette normally associated with someone of higher stature. That she's from Kyoto would suggest "old money." In such a case, she would have been taught it was necessary for her to maintain a certain image in public. Thus, accounting for her stoic behavior and why she would choose not to reveal her thoughts and feelings. Like most people with stature or money, she would have known a certain level of entitlement.

People with a high degree of privilege do almost always grow up with some sort of pathology, but psychopathy wouldn't be the diagnosis of someone like Shizuru (for the reasons that Ninja already mentioned). If I were going to attribute some pathology where personality is concerned, I would probably consider traits of covert narcissism and possibly avoidance. Low internal self-esteem, which she might bolster through the acting out of her public image and the fans worship she receives because of it. Being unwilling to put herself in a position to truly be criticized because of her fear of rejection.

I don't think her feelings for Natsuki are disingenuous at all, nor do I think that she truly considers Natsuki as an object. As others have mentioned, she was perfectly content just to observe Natsuki and help her through whatever methods were available to her.

Further, just because we don't see many specific evidences of it in the anime itself doesn't mean their friendship/relationship was lacking substance. We don't know what conversations they've had, what activities they've done together off-screen. It is implied that they're friends, enough for Natsuki to be genuinely concerned for Shizuru's well being - and Natsuki isn't known for her social awareness and empathy. She's street smart and reasonably book smart, but her emotional and social IQ can be said to be somewhat lacking. It's implicit from the drama cds, that they did indeed spend plenty of time together as friends outside of school.

Regarding friendship, Shizuru is thematically imperative. The only thing separating Nao and Natsuki as foils is friendship - which she was able to attain at the persistence of Shizuru's overtures. This softens her up for the later overtures of Mai and the other HiME.

In regards to her break down. Yes, it is never clarified what specifically went on in the house with Natsuki sleeping other than kisses and furtive caresses. It's not OK, but Shizuru has run out of time. Like everyone (and as everyone keeps expressing, so many of the other HiME also slipped a foot or two off into the deep end once the in-fighting started).

She accepts Haruka's opinions of her and further denigrates herself. In such a socially repressive environment as Japan, in a position like it's implied that she has, that kind of shame and guilt must feel staggering. It's hard enough to have those kinds of feelings in liberal by comparison, rugged individualist USA.

To have been exposed in that manner, and then be rejected in the worst way possible. Not a note or phone call, a scream and step away. The person you love most is terrified of you, repulsed by the idea of your touch...and you're going to die. You're all going to die. At that point, what is it all for? What does anything even matter? I think just about anyone would have been washed with an extreme sense of fatalism at that moment.

She could have thrown up her hands. She could have decided to muster some anger, and think "I did all of this for you, see if I help you again", that too would have been a semi-natural response. Instead, she decides to carry on and continue to protect Natsuki. She can't give her anything else, she's not allowed. The one thing she can do is make sure Natsuki stays alive.

After she destroys Diana, I'm not entirely certain but the words she says I think are aimed toward Haruka leaving Yukino with an armband. Seeing a possible future self, sitting with some scrap of what used to be Natsuki and feeling afraid of that. So she says the equivalent of, "screw it, I love you, you just sit tight and let me handle it."

What place do morals have in a world where the person you love's life depends on your ability to act outside of them?

I get it, the average person might think they couldn't do something like that. They woul never sacrifice their personal belief in what's "right."

For some people, for a lot of people, they'll hide their criminal children. They'll strangle another human being with their bare hands for touching their wife. In the defense of people they care about, some people will find that the act of protection is what is right, no matter the cost.

Even the cost of yourself.

In the Kiyohime story, it's Kiyohime that kills the both of them not Anchin. If that was her intention, she would probably have killed Natsuki under the bell. She doesn't kill Natsuki, her instinct is to just pull the girl over and hold her. I don't think she could have done it.

This is my subjective view of Shizuru based on what I watched. If I were Shizuru, I would have been planning on dying the entire time. From the first day that I found out that only one of us could win, only one of us could live. I would take my kisses and touches, thinking that she'd never know. Because I was going to sacrifice myself for her, and take these memories to my grave. Kill her enemies and disappear.

Brilliantly articulated, and amazing points. I agree completely with what you've said. =]

You've also opened my eyes to many points about Shizuru, especially her being from old money. Your paragraph that explained the pathology, was especially amazing. Very well said, and a great point. =]

Do you mind if I save the words in your post (in a word document, citing you as the original source of course), so that I can look back at them for the purposes of improving my understanding of and writing of Shizuru's character?


TheDreamer wrote:BubuzukeOnna, you make some excellent points. I read your post last night and had time this morning to mull over it.

Regarding Shizuru's infamous break-down and her presumed molestation of Natsuki, I have always disliked the (seemingly most popular) answer that the Carnival itself made her do such things. The Carnival itself doesn't fundamentally change anyone's personality, nor does it turn anyone good or evil. Every action has some logical basis in the character that performs that action. Despite the immense amount of pressure every HiME is in, some, like Midori or Natsuki, never seem to fall into darkness. In other words, your choices during the game are still very much your own. The coordinators of the game may manipulate certain emotions and traits within you, but they can not add things to your personality that are not there already. Otherwise, it would largely defeat the show's brutal study in human nature, rendering it a colorful and mindness clash of mecha against mecha.

This is not to say that Shizuru would have been capable of the things that she did without the context of the Carnival. And considering her behavior prior to the end-game - i.e. being content to love Natsuki from a respectful distance and simply look out for her best interests - I don't think she would have been capable of those things. What I have always wanted to see, and what BubuzukeOnna has just given me the pleasure to witness, is an in-depth analysis of how the circumstances of the Carnival influenced her actions.

I want to expand on that post from a slightly different angle.

Shizuru is faced with an incredibly harsh reality. That there are monsters and villains only a handful of otherwise normal woman have the power to defeat, and that she is one of them. That because of this power, her beloved Natsuki will most likely die. That in order for Natsuki to live, everyone else's loved one must die. That is an immense amount of additional pressure on someone who is already accustomed to hiding her emotions and silently bearing her guilt and shame.

With guilt and shame also comes anger and resentment. While she is accustomed to taking everything in stride, I would be surprised if she doesn't feel the slightest bit of rage at her family for molding her into what she is, at society for the harsh judgments that it imposes on her innermost desires, or at the people around her for happily accepting her persona at face-value. All of it reaffirms the notion that nobody cares about who she is or how she feels, and that everyone, family or no, is perfectly willing to build their happiness on her isolation.

Yukino's accusations toward her is but one in a lifetime of skewed assumptions Shizuru has had to endure. I like BubuzukeOnna's idea that Shizuru's plan from the beginning is to sacrifice everything for Natsuki, and that she, indeed, takes her touches and kisses thinking that Natsuki will never know. But Yukino and Haruka don't understand that. Nobody does. Nobody ever understands, and why should they? Shizuru never communicates.

And now, on top of the sacrifices she has already made, not just in the Carnival but in her brief lifetime, someone's ignorant, uninformed misassumption has just cost her Natsuki.

I think at that point, everything crumbled. This black, numbing, wordless anger that has gathered little by little throughout her entire life finally burst out from her tenuous grasp, settling its deadly gaze upon the catalysts of its release. And after having taken her first human life before Natsuki's eyes, and witnessing, though Yukino's fate, the reality of being a HiME, nothing would be the same for her again. All of her efforts have been futile. The struggle is ultimately meaningless. Enter, extreme sense of fatalism, snuggled up to that black, numbing anger to create a not-entirely-unplausible mindset for a rampaging murderer.

But her actions prior to this were actually far from useless. It is her friendship that gave Natsuki strength to form connections with the other HiME, and with the residual energy of that love, Natsuki now turns around and saves her. By showing Shizuru love, romantic or no, Natsuki has, in a way, absolved her of her sins and suffering, because finally, someone, the one she loves most, is willing to hold her in her arms and accept the real Shizuru. Before she passes on, she is, perhaps for the first time she can remember, truly content.

But this one event is not enough to undo an entire lifetime of conditioning. She can open up more easily now to Natsuki, as evidenced by her breaking down into tears and asking for forgiveness after her resurrection. But when confronted with her actions by the other HiME, her old mask is firmly in place, thereby giving us that infamously infuriating "kannin-na" line.

Now, I admit to being one of those people who absolutely despise the ending. After being forced to face their own weaknesses and, for some, brutality, I don't think that the happy-go-lucky ending did any of them justice. I actually don't have an issue with the "kannin-na" line; knowing Shizuru, I would have been more surprised if she were actually able to open up to all the HiME right then and there. Instead, her flippant and almost flamboyant reaction reminds us that the walls are still very much there. That is one loose end that is not cleanly handled by the end of the series - and I don't think it should be.

What I dislike is how easily the other HiME accept the "kannin-na" line. Is it because they actually know she's sincerely sorry? Maybe. Is it because of the apocalypse they now have to prevent by destroying the HiME star together? More than likely. But if I were one of them, I would have thought to myself, "bullshit. That's not the end of it. This woman needs to talk it out with someone, or several people. Note to self: don't let her get out of it that easily. Try and get to know this girl at some point." But, that may also be my personal bias as a Shizuru fan.

This is also an awesome point! I agree with almost everything you've said. Do you also mind if I reference your post (citing you, of course) for purposes of understanding and writing Shizuru's character? =]

Thread: Everybody has made so many good points! I agree with BubuzukeOnna that Nagi , The Obsidian Lord, and John Smith were the only real villains. I think that they did evil things solely because they wanted to. Not because the events around them lead them to (like the events the Hime caught in the middle of the battle/pain/loss/fear/panic had to deal with). And, like BubuzukeOnna also said, the lines can be blurred (it can be said that Nagi and The Obsidian Lord are also victims of the situation of the Carnival/fate, etc.)

BubuzukeOnna, you are, awesome….*is very impressed with your detailed analyses of Shizuru and My-Hime* O.O *pokes you to see if you are real or if you are just a phantasm of awesome* =]

I now see Shizuru as a person who was victimized into becoming a villain. So I see her as a person, who was a victim, but also knowingly became a villain (but she didn’t really think much about it at the time, it was just what she had to do to protect the one she loves). So my opinion is still ultimately victim. But also importantly: a person as well. (Sorry for the confusing-ness of the paragraph above.)


Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:
BubuzukeOnna wrote:I find that the stories with the most depth are the ones in which no one is truly a villain or a hero. Where the lines are blurred, and there are only people - some more flawed than others, but all of them flawed.

Shades of grey. Modern thinking does seem to complicate what a villain and a hero truly is, but there's a reason for that. It's a bit of slight of hand trickery when a story may present itself as good vs. evil and suddenly the person you're rooting for turns out to be a train wreck on the inside. In return, the person you're jeering at turns out to be the most misunderstood character in the entire series.

The Mai-HiME series itself is so grounded in reality that an absent (and traditional) black-and-white storyline is perfectly justified. If they wanna have men beating up women, have racism or homophobia, discussions of rape (ala what Yukino accused Shizuru of); since there's no *true* good and evil in the world, especially in the world of modern day animation, anything's allowable. Good and evil is based on perception. Of course, a story with depth as BubuzukeOnna pointed out, will offer you such treats.

I enjoyed your insight BubuzukeOnna, honestly it's just a more well organized version of my own opinion on the matter. I wish I could throw a rebuttal for the sake of fun, but our replies here are all centered around perspective and we see eye to eye here. Thank you for sharing. :)

Well-said, Luu! (Is it ok I call you that? If it's not, I'm sorry for calling you that for so long before now and now...) I also agree 100% with everything you've said here. You and BubuzukeOnna have perfectly said everything I, the tongue-tied goofball, was thinking but unable to articulate. =]

MidnightPersona wrote:Wow guys. Make me have to actually READ shit. ;D

So, here's more of an addition from moi~

I agree and disagree with some stuff.

Disagree: Woah Demon, Yukino a villian? No no no. A topic for another thread, but she stopped herself before attacking Mai because she KNEW Haruka would not desire that. Mikoto just happened to stop by and... chaos. xD But if anyone wants to have THAT discussion with me we could make a thread about her. xD

Sidenote: Anyone else noticing all these threads are mixing together? We're discussing her victim or villain status in the hated thread? Lol, we're all awesome~

Shizuru Fujino did exactly what I would do in her shoes. I, personally, can't hate her for that once I figured that out. Also, I woulda destroyed 1st District as soon as I got the chance without going off the deep end. Think what you will, but I saw that as heroic. Maybe I am odd?

Also, we seem to neglect that Sunrise DID make ShizNat canon. I do believe the Otome pairings count for HiME as well, but that is my interpretation.

On the front of the manga: Fuck. The. MANGA! It is not at ALL canon for Anime-verse and, frankly, was awful and twisted the characters personalities to damn much. I could fume more... but yeah.

Natsuki and Tate? That doesn't need to be explained to... how does that even... no. Just... no. xD

I am kinda unsure where to start replying, so I will say this again:

Maybe it isn't Shizuru they hate, but, like me, they hate the fan-version of Shizuru because fans can/will twist and manipulate characters. A lot.

MidnightPersona, I agree with what you said about Yukino. Once again, you've articulated what I was unable to. =]

Cool sidenote! Very true! XD

I don't think you're odd at all for thinking that. If you're odd, I'm odd too, because I agree. Here's my take on what you said: Not to add more to mixing different threads, but Luu mentioned in another thread, the concept of an overly-protective (of Shizuru) Natsuki. I actually really like that concept, and can understand Natsuki's over-protectiveness very well. Therefore, I can also see and accept the concept of a very protective Shizuru. (I see Shizuru's destroying District 1 as her protecting Natsuki.)

Canon Shiznat! Yay! Mikoto Minagi

I agree, I'm not a fan of the manga. Thinking of it makes me frown. =/ I also think that the manga characters are very different from the anime characters. I prefer the anime characters. An example is Natsuki: I consider the anime Natsuki to be strong and independent, and I don't like the fact that manga Natsuki is chasing after Yuuichi. Natsuki chasing after anybody is not in my interpretation of "my Natsuki" that I know and love.

I also consider TatNat to be unlikely, because I think that my interpretations of Yuuichi and Natsuki are too similar to be romantically interested in each other. Here's my interpretations of Yuuichi and Natsuki after having looked at both their characters closely: They have many traits in common (some of those traits, like being oblivious when it comes to love, would stop them from getting together as a couple. Some of the traits, like both of them being fairly emotionally closed-off sometimes and having the tendency to get broody, could prevent them from working as a couple). This being said, I think they'd be great friends. (There's a fic by a great writer on this forum (I'm not sure if he wants me to endorse his fanfics yet, but I really want to because they're awesome) that portrays a Yuuichi/Natsuki friendship very well, in my opinion.)

Yes, once again, a person's liking or disliking of Shizuru can come down to their interpretation of Shizuru's character. Whether it be that he/she doesn't like his/her own interpretation of Shizuru, or whether (such as in your case, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong)) he/she in fact does respect and like Shizuru's character as he/she sees Shizuru, but does not like how other people distrespect his/her interpretation of Shizuru by (for example) idealizing Shizuru.

Sorry for the wording awkwardness of the above paragraph...I hope it makes sense... *inarticulate Natsuki* Natsuki Kuga

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:19 pm

MissSoccerNinja wrote:
MidnightPersona wrote:Wow guys. Make me have to actually READ shit. ;D

So, here's more of an addition from moi~

I agree and disagree with some stuff.

Disagree: Woah Demon, Yukino a villian? No no no. A topic for another thread, but she stopped herself before attacking Mai because she KNEW Haruka would not desire that. Mikoto just happened to stop by and... chaos. xD But if anyone wants to have THAT discussion with me we could make a thread about her. xD

Sidenote: Anyone else noticing all these threads are mixing together? We're discussing her victim or villain status in the hated thread? Lol, we're all awesome~

Shizuru Fujino did exactly what I would do in her shoes. I, personally, can't hate her for that once I figured that out. Also, I woulda destroyed 1st District as soon as I got the chance without going off the deep end. Think what you will, but I saw that as heroic. Maybe I am odd?

Also, we seem to neglect that Sunrise DID make ShizNat canon. I do believe the Otome pairings count for HiME as well, but that is my interpretation.

On the front of the manga: Fuck. The. MANGA! It is not at ALL canon for Anime-verse and, frankly, was awful and twisted the characters personalities to damn much. I could fume more... but yeah.

Natsuki and Tate? That doesn't need to be explained to... how does that even... no. Just... no. xD

I am kinda unsure where to start replying, so I will say this again:

Maybe it isn't Shizuru they hate, but, like me, they hate the fan-version of Shizuru because fans can/will twist and manipulate characters. A lot.

MidnightPersona, I agree with what you said about Yukino. Once again, you've articulated what I was unable to. =]

Cool sidenote! Very true! XD

I don't think you're odd at all for thinking that. If you're odd, I'm odd too, because I agree. Here's my take on what you said: Not to add more to mixing different threads, but Luu mentioned in another thread, the concept of an overly-protective (of Shizuru) Natsuki. I actually really like that concept, and can understand Natsuki's over-protectiveness very well. Therefore, I can also see and accept the concept of a very protective Shizuru. (I see Shizuru's destroying District 1 as her protecting Natsuki.)

Canon Shiznat! Yay! Mikoto Minagi

I agree, I'm not a fan of the manga. Thinking of it makes me frown. =/ I also think that the manga characters are very different from the anime characters. I prefer the anime characters. An example is Natsuki: I consider the anime Natsuki to be strong and independent, and I don't like the fact that manga Natsuki is chasing after Yuuichi. Natsuki chasing after anybody is not in my interpretation of "my Natsuki" that I know and love.

I also consider TatNat to be unlikely, because I think that my interpretations of Yuuichi and Natsuki are too similar to be romantically interested in each other. Here's my interpretations of Yuuichi and Natsuki after having looked at both their characters closely: They have many traits in common (some of those traits, like being oblivious when it comes to love, would stop them from getting together as a couple. Some of the traits, like both of them being fairly emotionally closed-off sometimes and having the tendency to get broody, could prevent them from working as a couple). This being said, I think they'd be great friends. (There's a fic by a great writer on this forum (I'm not sure if he wants me to endorse his fanfics yet, but I really want to because they're awesome) that portrays a Yuuichi/Natsuki friendship very well, in my opinion.)

Yes, once again, a person's liking or disliking of Shizuru can come down to their interpretation of Shizuru's character. Whether it be that he/she doesn't like his/her own interpretation of Shizuru, or whether (such as in your case, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong)) he/she in fact does respect and like Shizuru's character as he/she sees Shizuru, but does not like how other people distrespect his/her interpretation of Shizuru by (for example) idealizing Shizuru.

Sorry for the wording awkwardness of the above paragraph...I hope it makes sense... *inarticulate Natsuki* Natsuki Kuga

WALL OF TEXT! I will just quote you and I, since I'll reply to your replys to me xD

Yukino... Haruka... I've said it before and I'll say it again: To understand Shizuru fully you MUST understand HaruKino (and Natsuki) In truth, if you cannot understand all the characters, you cannot understand ANY characters. I find that to be true, but maybe others differ? If you'd like, I can start a pure HaruKino analysis thread? Or you can. :3

I'd kill for those I love--willingly. But I also have the sense that certain factors and persona's must be maintained in society. If given the chance? I think I could be a deadly HiME. Unlike Nao, I'd make ALL my victims suffer a cruel end. Or maybe not? it would depend on who I have (or lack there-of) by my side.

Canon ShizNat, Canon HaruKino, canon ChieAoi, so much canon xD Otome solved our questions for that~ (or so I interpreted).

Manga Natsuki was a joke. Manga Haruka and Yukino were OOC (but had some cute moments) and manga Shizuru was a joke. EVERYTHING about the manga made me go RAGE! But I own it... cuz Haruka and Yukino being each others keys? Epic. I use it as a reference cuz some of the ideas I liked~

<.<
>.>
Tate and Reito make more sense to me than any other pairing for either. yesIamayaoifanleavemealone.

I also agree, Natsuki and Tate would be good friends~

Shizuru is a character that you must delve into before writing for. If you cannot see all sides of her you have no right to write her. That goes for any character, really. That's why I am picky with my fics.

I'm sure some people are annoyed I keep bringing HaruKino into this, but they're just as much part of Shizuru's character development as Natsuki is, maybe even more on some points. It's easier for me to analyze and love Shizuru BECAUSE of Haruka and Yukino.

Just saiyan~

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:21 pm

@Ninja

Of course you may, and I'm terribly flattered! Thank you for your generous compliments. As much as "phantasm of awesome" has a ring to it - I assure you, if I were to dance on your toes you would feel it. The cake may be a lie, but I am not.

@Midnight

Quite right, our understanding of anyone - even in real life - is based on a series of observations. Some of the information will be the observation we get from direct interaction, by speaking to the person. People are not always honest in self-reporting, however, and so we must also observe everything. Their environment, their family, their actions, and their interactions with others. Who they choose to spend time with, who they choose to shun. All of these things will serve to give us the fullest picture possible of the person in question. Good authors and character designers will take this into account as they formulate their stories and the persons that populate them.








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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:37 pm

I'm sure some people are annoyed I keep bringing HaruKino into this, but they're just as much part of Shizuru's character development as Natsuki is, maybe even more on some points. It's easier for me to analyze and love Shizuru BECAUSE of Haruka and Yukino.

... I'm curious: what do you think Shizuru and Reito's relationship was like all throughout? Reito had to deal with the looming threat of the Obsidian Lord. Shizuru was friends with Reito; you think Reito knew Shizuru was a Hime?

Raises a whole new set of questions.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:43 pm

SpiralDasher wrote:
I'm sure some people are annoyed I keep bringing HaruKino into this, but they're just as much part of Shizuru's character development as Natsuki is, maybe even more on some points. It's easier for me to analyze and love Shizuru BECAUSE of Haruka and Yukino.

... I'm curious: what do you think Shizuru and Reito's relationship was like all throughout? Reito had to deal with the looming threat of the Obsidian Lord. Shizuru was friends with Reito; you think Reito knew Shizuru was a Hime?

Raises a whole new set of questions.

Shizuru wasn't close to Reito. Both are standoffish where-as Haruka is out there. Haruka can be considered Shizuru's best friend. Reito and Shizuru would be guarded around each other because they're so much alike. If anything, it would cause animosity, I think. Reito and her try to hide any and everything from each other. They're complex, but wouldn't be able to crack the others shell unless they wanted the other to know something.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:53 pm

MidnightPersona wrote:
SpiralDasher wrote:
I'm sure some people are annoyed I keep bringing HaruKino into this, but they're just as much part of Shizuru's character development as Natsuki is, maybe even more on some points. It's easier for me to analyze and love Shizuru BECAUSE of Haruka and Yukino.

... I'm curious: what do you think Shizuru and Reito's relationship was like all throughout? Reito had to deal with the looming threat of the Obsidian Lord. Shizuru was friends with Reito; you think Reito knew Shizuru was a Hime?

Raises a whole new set of questions.

Shizuru wasn't close to Reito. Both are standoffish where-as Haruka is out there. Haruka can be considered Shizuru's best friend. Reito and Shizuru would be guarded around each other because they're so much alike. If anything, it would cause animosity, I think. Reito and her try to hide any and everything from each other. They're complex, but wouldn't be able to crack the others shell unless they wanted the other to know something.

I'm just giving "what ifs." I think they could have been friends...

Alright, fine. I'll stop.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 am

SpiralDasher wrote:
MidnightPersona wrote:
SpiralDasher wrote:
I'm sure some people are annoyed I keep bringing HaruKino into this, but they're just as much part of Shizuru's character development as Natsuki is, maybe even more on some points. It's easier for me to analyze and love Shizuru BECAUSE of Haruka and Yukino.

... I'm curious: what do you think Shizuru and Reito's relationship was like all throughout? Reito had to deal with the looming threat of the Obsidian Lord. Shizuru was friends with Reito; you think Reito knew Shizuru was a Hime?

Raises a whole new set of questions.

Shizuru wasn't close to Reito. Both are standoffish where-as Haruka is out there. Haruka can be considered Shizuru's best friend. Reito and Shizuru would be guarded around each other because they're so much alike. If anything, it would cause animosity, I think. Reito and her try to hide any and everything from each other. They're complex, but wouldn't be able to crack the others shell unless they wanted the other to know something.

I'm just giving "what ifs." I think they could have been friends...

Alright, fine. I'll stop.

No no Demon. X3 It got me thinking, and that's what *I* thought~ Someone else may have a different idea and I merely stated mine. No ones gonna burn you at the stake! (I almost wrote 'steak' xD) Keep them coming! Like mmhm... what about Shizuru and Yukariko?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Yuri-hime on Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:14 am

MidnightPersona wrote:Shizuru wasn't close to Reito. Both are standoffish where-as Haruka is out there. Haruka can be considered Shizuru's best friend. Reito and Shizuru would be guarded around each other because they're so much alike. If anything, it would cause animosity, I think. Reito and her try to hide any and everything from each other. They're complex, but wouldn't be able to crack the others shell unless they wanted the other to know something.
I disagree. How can Shizuru and Haruka be considered 'best friends' yet Shizuru and Reito can not be? Shizuru and Reito are essentially different sides of the same coin. They have more in common, and so share more common ground to become friends, than say the polar opposites of Shizuru and Haruka. I can see Haruka and Shizuru becoming 'competitive friends' when they're in college, and one day they *could* become 'best friends', or at least understand each other well enough to truly enjoy each others company. But I don't see how Haruka and Shizuru could become close when they were practically at each other's throats, or at least Haruka was mostly at Shizuru's throat all the time. Yet Shizuru and Reito who had a more 'cordial' interactions can't become friends.

SpiralDasher wrote:I'm just giving "what ifs." I think they could have been friends...

Alright, fine. I'll stop.
No need to 'stop'. You aren't wrong in having your own opinion, and sharing it with others ^^
Besides I agree with you fully. I can easily see Shizuru and Reito actually becoming good friends. If Shizuru can become friends with Haruka, the woman who made it her life's mission to be antagonistic towards Shizuru on a daily basis, plus bitch-slapped and head-butted her, I don't see why Shizuru and Reito can't have a close friendship, when their daily interactions weren't anywhere near as antagonistic. Yes, they are both cool and calculating, but I believe that would add an element of 'fun and intrigue' to whatever friendship they formed. They would both always have some catty/witty remark for each other, that only they both would truly get the veiled meaning of. And I can see them enjoying the same kind of activities and events, so they'd have much to see, do, and talk with each other about.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:33 am

Yuri-hime wrote:
MidnightPersona wrote:Shizuru wasn't close to Reito. Both are standoffish where-as Haruka is out there. Haruka can be considered Shizuru's best friend. Reito and Shizuru would be guarded around each other because they're so much alike. If anything, it would cause animosity, I think. Reito and her try to hide any and everything from each other. They're complex, but wouldn't be able to crack the others shell unless they wanted the other to know something.
I disagree. How can Shizuru and Haruka be considered 'best friends' yet Shizuru and Reito can not be? Shizuru and Reito are essentially different sides of the same coin. They have more in common, and so share more common ground to become friends, than say the polar opposites of Shizuru and Haruka. I can see Haruka and Shizuru becoming 'competitive friends' when they're in college, and one day they *could* become 'best friends', or at least understand each other well enough to truly enjoy each others company. But I don't see how Haruka and Shizuru could become close when they were practically at each other's throats, or at least Haruka was mostly at Shizuru's throat all the time. Yet Shizuru and Reito who had a more 'cordial' interactions can't become friends.

SpiralDasher wrote:I'm just giving "what ifs." I think they could have been friends...

Alright, fine. I'll stop.
No need to 'stop'. You aren't wrong in having your own opinion, and sharing it with others ^^
Besides I agree with you fully. I can easily see Shizuru and Reito actually becoming good friends. If Shizuru can become friends with Haruka, the woman who made it her life's mission to be antagonistic towards Shizuru on a daily basis, plus bitch-slapped and head-butted her, I don't see why Shizuru and Reito can't have a close friendship, when their daily interactions weren't anywhere near as antagonistic. Yes, they are both cool and calculating, but I believe that would add an element of 'fun and intrigue' to whatever friendship they formed. They would both always have some catty/witty remark for each other, that only they both would truly get the veiled meaning of. And I can see them enjoying the same kind of activities and events, so they'd have much to see, do, and talk with each other about.

SEE!?! This is what we need, opposing points of view. Demon get's a cookie.

You make good points, Yuri. I still stand by the fact I am sure they're guarded with each other... but keeping Haruka in check would be something they would work toward together and I can see them working together for other things. But I doubt they'd ever 'open up' to each other, but yes... friends on some level at least. Though, they say keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. That could also be a logic. Mayhaps they're close because they're NOT close, if that makes sense?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:57 am

@Spiral

Don't Stop! Never stop.

I too think they could be friends. Reito gets her, as much as she tries to stay behind that veneer he sees right through it. That's pretty valuable, terrifying a little bit, but valuable. Because he's quite similar as a person, she too would equally see behind his veneer- there would likely be a sort of conspiratorial camaraderie there (as it appears there is). They wouldn't be having slumber parties, and crying in each other's arms or anything like that. It would be a more masculine friendship, despite both of them being more or less effeminate.

That's my opinion.


My opinions on Haruka and Shizuru - I don't think they hate one another. If you follow my conclusion that Shizuru is privileged and constrained/isolated by that privilege to a large extent, than seeing someone find her to be a rival - possibly want to emulate her to a degree in order to surpass her, she might simultaneously (from the pedestal) be unable not to look down on such a person. If she doesn't dislike Haruka (I think she enjoys toying with Haruka because of Haruka's open-ness, it's affectionate even though Haruka might not be able to understand it that way) she wouldn't encourage Haruka to actually succeed in it- to succeed in an emulation. She'll keep Haruka motivated and angry and herself, which is both efficient for her needs and beneficial to Haruka as a person.

I think she'll also prize Haruka as someone who has a very grounded vision of Shizuru, she calls the girl out on a lot of things that other people let slide because of the idealized version of herself they accept. She's willing to listen to Haruka's diatribe and take it at face value, until Haruka brings Natsuki into the equation. It's the same in Otome, Haruka is the only one aside from Natsuki (who does so privately) who will confront Shizuru on a personal level. That's a painful precious thing.


This post is a lot less organized, but hopefully not senseless. I'm sorry for that.


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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MidnightPersona on Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:02 am

BubuzukeOnna wrote:@Spiral

Don't Stop! Never stop.

I too think they could be friends. Reito gets her, as much as she tries to stay behind that veneer he sees right through it. That's pretty valuable, terrifying a little bit, but valuable. Because he's quite similar as a person, she too would equally see behind his veneer- there would likely be a sort of conspiratorial camaraderie there (as it appears there is). They wouldn't be having slumber parties, and crying in each other's arms or anything like that. It would be a more masculine friendship, despite both of them being more or less effeminate.

That's my opinion.


My opinions on Haruka and Shizuru - I don't think they hate one another. If you follow my conclusion that Shizuru is privileged and constrained/isolated by that privilege to a large extent, than seeing someone find her to be a rival - possibly want to emulate her to a degree in order to surpass her, she might simultaneously (from the pedestal) be unable not to look down on such a person. If she doesn't dislike Haruka (I think she enjoys toying with Haruka because of Haruka's open-ness, it's affectionate even though Haruka might not be able to understand it that way) she wouldn't encourage Haruka to actually succeed in it- to succeed in an emulation. She'll keep Haruka motivated and angry and herself, which is both efficient for her needs and beneficial to Haruka as a person.

I think she'll also prize Haruka as someone who has a very grounded vision of Shizuru, she calls the girl out on a lot of things that other people let slide because of the idealized version of herself they accept. She's willing to listen to Haruka's diatribe and take it at face value, until Haruka brings Natsuki into the equation. It's the same in Otome, Haruka is the only one aside from Natsuki (who does so privately) who will confront Shizuru on a personal level. That's a painful precious thing.


This post is a lot less organized, but hopefully not senseless. I'm sorry for that.


Psh, Organization. Who does that?

Also, I do not think they see full past each others mask (Reito and Shiz that is) but I *do* think they KNOW the masks are there and they try and play around each other. I mean, it's like a game of chess... but Haruka and Yukino make that chess game complex! All the student council is very intertwined.

Oh god, my brain is reeling. Perhaps I should think more atm. I can't gather all my thoughts. They're hitting me like trains xD

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by TheDreamer on Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:50 am

Shizuru and Reito wouldn't cry into each other's arms or have slumber parties, but I think they would have an understanding of each other that other characters would most probably lack. They have both heeded the call of darkness, so to speak, and now that they've survived the ordeal, they then have to deal with the emotional and psychological ramifications of their choices.

I can see them being there for each other when they can't bear to be around anyone else. They might not ever candidly discuss whatever's haunting them.

Instead, they would more likely draw strength from each others' company. What looks to the casual observer like a bit of small talk over tea could be their way of saying, "Well, I guess we're both just hanging in there."

And after they finish, they would go their separate ways without having said anything substantial or significant. They would be unsure about just about every aspect of their lives but for the fact that they will both be there again next week. They may tell themselves that they go only to make sure that the other is okay. No doubt, that is a small part of it. But in truth, they will both be there because they need to be there. It's the only thing they have going for them.

And so it continues, and life moves on. They are like two tired feet which propel each other onward.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:35 am

MidnightPersona wrote:Like mmhm... what about Shizuru and Yukariko?

Interesting you should bring Yukariko up; they did have that scene where they talked together after Yukariko "killed the vampire." I've always wondered what they discussed. I haven’t the slightest idea. XD

And sorry about my reply and actions before, everyone.

… -nibbles cookie- :3

Besides I agree with you fully. I can easily see Shizuru and Reito actually becoming good friends. [….] Yes, they are both cool and calculating, but I believe that would add an element of 'fun and intrigue' to whatever friendship they formed. They would both always have some catty/witty remark for each other, that only they both would truly get the veiled meaning of. And I can see them enjoying the same kind of activities and events, so they'd have much to see, do, and talk with each other about.

^ This. I’ve always thought that even if they aren’t close, they share the same circumstances (surrounded by flocks of fans and keeping masks on), that they might be able to get along. Maybe not share their closest secrets, but in a way, they’re almost like an opposite gender version of each other, and they could at least be comfortable enough around each other to share a friendship and hang out with one another from time to time.

They wouldn't be having slumber parties, and crying in each other's arms or anything like that.

I dunno~ In another Hime-non-cannon-verse, if Reito would accept his inner gay-man (we all know he has the makes to be one- don’t deny it!), it would be highly amusing to imagine this scene. (Of course, Shizuru and Reito would have to be past the mask stage and I suppose I’m humoring myself with crack at this point.)
Crack Time:

Reito: I don’t know how you do it, Shizuru. You’ve been with Natsuki-kun for nearly three years now. I was only with Tate for a month and then -sniff- he left me for that Tokiha woman. ;~;
Shizuru: There, there. There are other fish in the sea. How about Takeda-kun from the kendo club? –hands Reito some tissues and tea-

Sorry for side-tracking. >_<

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:59 pm

MissSoccerNinja wrote:BubuzukeOnna, you are, awesome….*is very impressed with your detailed analyses of Shizuru and My-Hime* O.O *pokes you to see if you are real or if you are just a phantasm of awesome*



Indeed, Miss Lohan. Now off to rehab. :3

In all seriousness, I'd like to share something random, albeit relevant that I've posted in our Facebook group recently:



Perhaps Shizuru expressing sadness for the "death" of Mikoto displays her as someone capable of caring for people other than just Natsuki. In the eyes of people who don't like her very much anyway. Granted this was after the shedding of tears and final battle, but it's a start of a beautiful realization.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:40 pm

@Spiral

Nice crack. (don't laugh)


I agree about them being practically the same person in two differently gendered bodies.

Have you ever met someone like that? (open question, anyone can answer)


@Luu gpoy? lol



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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MissSoccerNinja on Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:32 am

So much to respond to! But since It's late, the stupid browser deleted part of my original reply, and my little cousins will be waking me up in a few hours (I don't know how little kids wake up so early...) this is what I have for now:

BubuzukeOnna wrote:@Spiral

Nice crack. (don't laugh)


I agree about them being practically the same person in two differently gendered bodies.

Have you ever met someone like that? (open question, anyone can answer)


@Luu gpoy? lol



I agree! I also believe that Shizuru and Reito are "the same person in two differently gendered bodies." I used to think that my former best-friend and I were like that, but let me down really badly, which is something that I could never knowingly do to a friend (he made the conscious decision to let me down), so I realized that he and I are different.


I also believe that Natsuki and Yuuichi Tate are, in many ways "the same person in two differently gendered bodies." I think they both share many personality traits:

They can both get broody/angsty.

They both needed an open person (Shizuru for Natsuki, and Shiho for Yuuichi) to break them out of their broody/angsty-shells in the past.

They are dumb-as-rocks when it comes to love and realizing that people like them.

Also when it comes to love, they are not go-getters/proactive (Natsuki needed Shizuru to sort of nudge her into realizing her feelings).

Their manners of speaking are both fairly straight-forward and can be blunt
(Natsuki: (to Mai) "So it seems you didn't drown..." and "I'm not afraid of losing, because the person I care about the most is already dead."
Yuuichi: (to Mai) "'I'm rooting for you'? Thats stupid and careless to say." and (in episode 26 after he comes back to life, Yuuichi is responding to Reito's accusation) "Yes, I did do that (lead on Mai and Shiho, and hurt them both), but that man is dead now." (then he goes on to shout/proclaim his love for Mai).)

(I think that)They both mature/grow as people as the show (My-Hime) progresses.

They are both pretty laid-back/chill people.

In addition, I think that it also says something that, the women they are with (Shizuru and Mai) are both strong women. This could indicate the willingness/acceptance of having to be submissive in a relationship sometimes. (Let's face it, any person that's with Mai is going to have to be submissive sometimes. And Shizuru, Shizuru is a nice and considerate person, but when she wants something, she should not be argued with.)


This may reveal/prove the fact that I think about My-Hime way too much, but I think that Shiznat's "couple's friends" would be Maiichi and Harukino, and Reito/whoever he's with.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:28 pm

[quote="]

This may reveal/prove the fact that I think about My-Hime way too much, but I think that Shiznat's "couple's friends" would be Maiichi and Harukino, and Reito/whoever he's with.[/quote]

You aren't alone there and with EXA explaining some stuff the anime didn't I tend to get a head ache when I think about all the My Hime stuff... or that could be from thinking in general. >_<

Oh dear I didn't quote right that time apologies.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MissSoccerNinja on Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:07 am

Magus Phantalus wrote:

This may reveal/prove the fact that I think about My-Hime way too much, but I think that Shiznat's "couple's friends" would be Maiichi and Harukino, and Reito/whoever he's with.

You aren't alone there and with EXA explaining some stuff the anime didn't I tend to get a head ache when I think about all the My Hime stuff... or that could be from thinking in general. >_<

Oh dear I didn't quote right that time apologies.

I screwed up on that quote too...don't worry, you're not alone! :scratch:

No problem! It's nice to know there are others who think about it a lot too! =] I'm sorry your head hurts though... *gives you an ice pack for your head* Don't worry, I don't think either of us have it as bad as Psyduck... psyduck ... =P =]

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:58 am

MissSoccerNinja wrote:In addition, I think that it also says something that, the women they are with (Shizuru and Mai) are both strong women. This could indicate the willingness/acceptance of having to be submissive in a relationship sometimes. (Let's face it, any person that's with Mai is going to have to be submissive sometimes. And Shizuru, Shizuru is a nice and considerate person, but when she wants something, she should not be argued with.)

I'm not sure about Mai, although it's indicated in the OVA "Kuro no Mai" that she has her demands. ^_~ Shizuru would definitely speak up about what she wants in a relationship as she craves affection time once she settled in enough with her partner. Remember episode 26's ending?



That's a wee example. Now that the cloud have lifted, she can express herself about Natsuki better~ This is what she wants!

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:14 am

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:

Youko look really happy for them. o-o -rewatches the ending scene- Yep, Youko's REALLY happy for them. ^^ (So this means either Youko's open-minded, and/or is a lesbian/bi herself! >D ... A girl can still hope.)

Shiznat: Youko approved. Yohko

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:31 pm

SpiralDasher wrote:Youko look really happy for them. o-o -rewatches the ending scene- Yep, Youko's REALLY happy for them. ^^ (So this means either Youko's open-minded, and/or is a lesbian/bi herself! >D ... A girl can still hope.)

Shiznat: Youko approved. Yohko

<3 Such a hopeful Dashie~ Youko believes in all forms of love, but secretly want the Sugiura that is Midoreh. gay unicorn

XD (OFF-TOPIC...) I don't think you're part of our Facebook group, but I recently uploaded this:



Have you ever seen Youko look so uke before? X'D

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When Shizuru said "Ara" for the first time, the "Ara" broke into a thousand pieces and they all went skipping about. That was the beginning of fairies.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:42 pm

Luu Sky Sapphire wrote:XD (OFF-TOPIC...) I don't think you're part of our Facebook group, but I recently uploaded this:



Have you ever seen Youko look so uke before? X'D

HJSGHDSJBJ Youko looks five years younger! So cute!! -saves- <3333~! And her attire looks similar to Otomes.

And Yukino looks like a boy. o_o

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

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