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Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Luu Sky Sapphire on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:52 am

MissSoccerNinja wrote:Agreed. =] My favorite part about this forum is both discussing things I agree with, with people I agree with, and discussing things I don't agree with, with people I don't agree with (so that I may learn from them). The latter concept is very interesting, because I usually end up widening my perspective on matters. This having been said, Luu, you're a Tomoe fan, right? I'm interested now! I used to think of Tomoe as just the girl who is obsessed with Shizuru, but now I'm curious. I'm going to check out some pro-Tomoe threads. =]

Does anybody know somebody who hates Shizuru?

That is correct. :)

tomoe2 <----- No respect.

The little jezebel gets a lot of 'hate' here and there; yet another thing she has in common with the bubuzuke woman. Only Tomoe's 'hate' is a bit more severe as she tried to steal Shizuru away from Natsuki Kruger. Without going off-topic, just check out the Mai-Otome forum section to read more on my thoughts. ;p

I know somebody who criticized Shizuru and her actions a lot in the past. Unfortunately I consider it rude to single people out. study If he (or she? muahaha!) ends up reading this thread, you'll get your answers. *wink*

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:14 pm

First off let me say that I am a shiznat fan...now that that is out of the way. Time for something completely different from me here I go.(ahem)

I accuse the shiznat pairing as being nothing more than yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize.

Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by ookamidesu on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Magus Phantalus wrote:First off let me say that I am a shiznat fan...now that that is out of the way. Time for something completely different from me here I go.(ahem)

I accuse the shiznat pairing as being nothing more than yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize.

Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

But... more people like the yuri fodder than not...

... right?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:33 pm

I actually think it was a pretty clever and interesting concept, figuring out what would happen if one of two had their MIPs as another Hime or each other. Sure, it might have been a fast way to get rid of two Himes with one stone, but the ride was enjoyable.

And yeah, what Ooka said: what's wrong with yuri fodder? XD

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:00 am

There is nothing wrong with yuri fodder when it is done well. That being said convince me that anime Shizuru is both a better canidate for Natsuki's affections than manga Tate and a better character. After all as I said anime Shizuru refers to Natsuki as hers and seems deaf to anything Natsuki might say on the subject. On top of that any official romance between the two isn't even mentioned in the anime only in the art books that say they find happiness, which can be interrperated any number of ways.

In the manga Tate never refers to her as an object to be owned and their relationship is far more canonical than anime Shizuru's and Natsuki's. Once again if you disagree convince me I am wrong.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Chaglette on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:44 am

I don't think think Tate likes Natsuki as a lover in the first place actually :3 Me thinks he likes Mai more. Natsuki only gave a kiss to Tate but it came as a surprise to him, so he might not have acknowledged Natsuki as a potential love interest? Then he wouldn't have a reason to treat Natsuki as an object (Even though Natsuki comically treated him as a slave/object) And Tate kissed

So I think Shiznat is a little more canon than TatexNatsuki, since Natsuki returned Shizuru's feelings (as a friend maybe? But it's still returned) but Tate did not. Natsuki's feelings to Tate were one-sided but when you look at the anime, Duran increased in size when Natsuki realised Shizuru was her MIP which might meant Natsuki had feelings for Shizuru but it could be out of gratitude (from supporting her) or she cared alot for Shizuru or it could really be romantic feelings.

The definition of 'Most Important' does not necessarily refer to 'My Sweetheart' though, it differs among people and to Natsuki it might refer to 'Most Gratitude', 'Bestest Friend (Shizuru or Mai?)', 'The One who Cared for Me The Most (Her Mother)'. To Natsuki, Shizuru could be any kind of MIP. To Shizuru, Natsuki could be 'Her World', 'The Only Person She Could Trust', 'The Only Person She could be Relaxed Around' etc. The Shiznat people are obsessed about as 'The Two Hot Chicks who Love Each other' might be just mixed feelings between two people. So is TatexNatsuki, with Tate thinking of Natsuki as another HiME whom he can summon a Child for and Natsuki thinking of Tate as 'My Slave whom I Fell in Love With'.

This is just my feelings when comparing Shiznat and TatexNatsuki ^^"' Somehow I destroyed two couples?

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:54 am

Switching gears now hang on!

One of the many arguments I've seen is that Shizuru who was fairly indifferent during Sear's attack suddenly went crazy when Nagi told them about the carnival. Two things seem to ignored when someone gives this argument.

One Natsuki was part of a group who were actually looking out for each other.

And two when Nagi did eventually tell Shizuru there could have been very lilttle she could have done to challenge him. Here is someone who clearly knows way more about what was going on than her or any hime AND she had no idea of knowing just how powerful Nagi is. In the anime Nagi's full power is never shown but if you ask me the ability to control time is a pretty big deal.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Chaglette on Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:44 am

Nagi could control time? o_o

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by she-ga-roo on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:03 am

Magus Phantalus wrote:First off let me say that I am a shiznat fan...now that that is out of the way. Time for something completely different from me here I go.(ahem)

first things first for me: i can't say anything about natsuki and tate from the manga since i never read it.

Magus Phantalus wrote:I accuse the shiznat pairing as being nothing more than yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize.

actually i don't think that way about natsuki and shizuru in the series. i think just the (oh so famous) part from ep22 in which it's not really clear what shizuru did or didn't do to natsuki while the latter was sleeping could be called "yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize".

Magus Phantalus wrote: Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

as i said, i never read the manga so i can't speak for tate. but i have to disagree with the "Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned" part. i think she really loves natsuki. she proved it by saving her from the distance, fighting for her and helping her everytime natsuki needed her. and i think you can see that in the series. but i have to say, that it all came down after the part, when shizuru thought that natsuki had rejected her and her feelings towards her. that and the fact that the obsaidian lord or HiME-star were manipulating the HiMEs made shizuru fall into that psycho state and she turnd from 'i love natsuki so i'll do everything for her' to 'i love natsuki so i'll make her mine no metter what!'
even if i joke around about it, i don't really think of shizuru as an psychotic person. for example mai went crazy and out of control too, after her brother was killed, and for my part i nver heard anyone calling her a pscyho cause of it. yukino wanted to kill mai in a sneaky way. mikoto went berserk sometimes cause of being manipulated. but it seems that people just complain about the things shizuru did and that they mark just her as the psycho-girl. which leads me to the question: why?! oO


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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:37 am

she-ga-roo wrote:
Magus Phantalus wrote: Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

[...] but i have to disagree with the "Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned" part. i think she really loves natsuki. she proved it by saving her from the distance, fighting for her and helping her everytime natsuki needed her. and i think you can see that in the series. but i have to say, that it all came down after the part, when shizuru thought that natsuki had rejected her and her feelings towards her.

I completely forgot this, but yeah, the size of Kiyohime alone should prove how much Shizuru loved Natsuki; Kiyohime tore apart a building with her size!! XD And we know the Child's size is based on the Hime's love for their MIP because of Shizuru and Natsuki's whole fight scene and the dialogue in it.

As for them being psychotic, some other characters went mentally unstable, but I still don't think of them as psychotic. Heck, Akane went to a mental ward after Kazu's death, but she wasn't psychotic.
As for Shizuru... I get chills when I think of the expression she made when finally openly confessing her love to Natsuki, right after she got rid of Diana. =/ To me, that look kinda screams psycho... =/

Or do you mean the official definition of being a psychopath? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

---

Now onto a reason why Shizuru might be hated? There's simply too much of her. In a cast of over twenty interesting characters with different perspectives (and that's from just one of the Mai-Series' worlds!), there's only so much one can take of the same two characters. After a while it gets repetitive and, as the saying goes, "Too much of a good thing is bad."

There are reasons Shiznat isn't my favorite top pairing for Mai Hime anymore; what's stated above is one of them. (I've been in this fandom for about four years now. Granted I'm trying to get out and move on, but until I find an active community for a new fandom I like...) I get tired of seeing her/Shiznat; that's why I write for other pairings, so there's more diversity. I know Shiznat fans will read Shiznat, I'm not saying to stop, but I'm kinda hoping they try out other pairings so there's more diversity in this huge fandom.

People will read what they will read, just as I will write what I will write. =)

Let the flames begin. >_<

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:56 am

Nagi wrote:Nagi could control time? o_o
Its been awhile since I watched the anime but yeah in one episode where he wants to talk to Alyssa and Miyu the surrounding area turns this greyish white color and all of Alyssa's guards freeze in place. As soon as Nagi teleports out everything returns to normal.

I should once again mention I am a huge fan of Shizuru, Natsuki, and shiznat in general. I was simply trying to stir the pot so to speak.

Oh and SpiralDasher I know how you feel I go through periods where I love My Hime and want to eat sleep and breathe and then periods where I'll set it aside for a few months...not to say I won't be active on this board or anything.^_^

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by MissSoccerNinja on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:49 pm

she-ga-roo wrote:
Magus Phantalus wrote:First off let me say that I am a shiznat fan...now that that is out of the way. Time for something completely different from me here I go.(ahem)

first things first for me: i can't say anything about natsuki and tate from the manga since i never read it.

Magus Phantalus wrote:I accuse the shiznat pairing as being nothing more than yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize.

actually i don't think that way about natsuki and shizuru in the series. i think just the (oh so famous) part from ep22 in which it's not really clear what shizuru did or didn't do to natsuki while the latter was sleeping could be called "yuri fodder placed in the series to distract and tantalize".

Magus Phantalus wrote: Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

as i said, i never read the manga so i can't speak for tate. but i have to disagree with the "Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned" part. i think she really loves natsuki. she proved it by saving her from the distance, fighting for her and helping her everytime natsuki needed her. and i think you can see that in the series. but i have to say, that it all came down after the part, when shizuru thought that natsuki had rejected her and her feelings towards her. that and the fact that the obsaidian lord or HiME-star were manipulating the HiMEs made shizuru fall into that psycho state and she turnd from 'i love natsuki so i'll do everything for her' to 'i love natsuki so i'll make her mine no metter what!'
even if i joke around about it, i don't really think of shizuru as an psychotic person. for example mai went crazy and out of control too, after her brother was killed, and for my part i nver heard anyone calling her a pscyho cause of it. yukino wanted to kill mai in a sneaky way. mikoto went berserk sometimes cause of being manipulated. but it seems that people just complain about the things shizuru did and that they mark just her as the psycho-girl. which leads me to the question: why?! oO

SpiralDasher wrote:
she-ga-roo wrote:
Magus Phantalus wrote: Secondly I accuse Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned. There fore Tate Yuuichi of the My Hime manga is a far better canidate for Natsuki's affecetions than Shizuru would ever be as he listened to her when she explained what happened to her mother and seemed to genuinely care for her.

If you disagree prove me wrong. Prove to me Shizuru is not a psychotic stereotype placed there for yuri fodder.

[...] but i have to disagree with the "Shizuru Fujino of the My Hime anime of not really loving Natsuki and of treating her as little more than an object to be owned" part. i think she really loves natsuki. she proved it by saving her from the distance, fighting for her and helping her everytime natsuki needed her. and i think you can see that in the series. but i have to say, that it all came down after the part, when shizuru thought that natsuki had rejected her and her feelings towards her.

I completely forgot this, but yeah, the size of Kiyohime alone should prove how much Shizuru loved Natsuki; Kiyohime tore apart a building with her size!! XD And we know the Child's size is based on the Hime's love for their MIP because of Shizuru and Natsuki's whole fight scene and the dialogue in it.

As for them being psychotic, some other characters went mentally unstable, but I still don't think of them as psychotic. Heck, Akane went to a mental ward after Kazu's death, but she wasn't psychotic.

I agree with what she-ga-roo and SpiralDasher said above. =]

I had a really long and detailed post about how Shiznat isn't yuri fodder because I get really bored with yuri fodder (undeveloped, ecchi-filled and lacking believable emotions, and consequently dissapointing "yuri") and Shiznat is my favorite couple (yuri, straight, or yaoi) ever, so I don't consider it to be yuri fodder; and many, many other things, but my computer decided to log me off, so that's all I'm going to say tonight.

But, yeah. There's some of the main points.

Oh, and one of the other main things is that I don't think Shizuru is psycho. I do think that she's definitely protective though. And she's somebody that you do not want to mess with. I see no problem with both of those traits. I wrote these comedic (well, I at least thought they were funny....) fake example situations that showed how Natsuki is the loud and obvious type of protective, while Shizuru is the quiet, calm and civil but very serious warning (with serious consequences if you don't heed the warning), type of protective, but...I'm way too tired to re-type them...

And I also wrote about how I consider Shizuru to not be a psychopath because I interpret her as having traits such as empathy, understanding, patience, and sane intelligence (psychopaths lack proper function (or any function at all) in the areas in their brain that control empathy and logic). Shizuru also doesn't strike me as a particularly aggressive person (psychopaths such as serial killers often have high agression). I interpret her as calm, kind, patient, and understanding.

(As somebody like Natsuki, who is not particularly calm) I'm going to go talk to Moon before I get even more angry when I remember all the other stuff I was gonna put in the post......I'm so ticked off right now...... X/..................I f***ing hate the screwy internet.....I F***ing hate it...... (Natsuki angry face) Natsuki Kuga X[


(Do you guys care if I write curse words? I write like I speak, and quite a few curse words come out of my mouth when I'm angry...But if it's not ok, I totally understand, and I have no problem with deleting the ones above (and not using bad words any more). I've already tried to censor the post a little bit...there were quite a few more curse words, and words that weren't asterisk-ed out when I first wrote this second message (after the first one was lost to the stupid internet))...

Anyway, I apologize for the scatter-brained-ness of this post. In spite of this sad excuse for a Shizuru-defense post, Shizuru is still awesome. Shizuru Fujino

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:13 am

Expository information for Shizuru was very contextual. Unlike with many of the characters, we weren't given monologues or back story on her feelings and motivations early in the series. Probably, we were meant to pick up on the many more subtle clues given - or not, and be completely surprised by the turn of events.

There were indeed, however, clues for those who were paying attention. I can't say if these were more difficult for a western audience to pick up on or not, but regardless they are there.

Her demeanor when interacting with adults and businesspersons indicates that she has a level of etiquette normally associated with someone of higher stature. That she's from Kyoto would suggest "old money." In such a case, she would have been taught it was necessary for her to maintain a certain image in public. Thus, accounting for her stoic behavior and why she would choose not to reveal her thoughts and feelings. Like most people with stature or money, she would have known a certain level of entitlement.

People with a high degree of privilege do almost always grow up with some sort of pathology, but psychopathy wouldn't be the diagnosis of someone like Shizuru (for the reasons that Ninja already mentioned). If I were going to attribute some pathology where personality is concerned, I would probably consider traits of covert narcissism and possibly avoidance. Low internal self-esteem, which she might bolster through the acting out of her public image and the fans worship she receives because of it. Being unwilling to put herself in a position to truly be criticized because of her fear of rejection.

I don't think her feelings for Natsuki are disingenuous at all, nor do I think that she truly considers Natsuki as an object. As others have mentioned, she was perfectly content just to observe Natsuki and help her through whatever methods were available to her.

Further, just because we don't see many specific evidences of it in the anime itself doesn't mean their friendship/relationship was lacking substance. We don't know what conversations they've had, what activities they've done together off-screen. It is implied that they're friends, enough for Natsuki to be genuinely concerned for Shizuru's well being - and Natsuki isn't known for her social awareness and empathy. She's street smart and reasonably book smart, but her emotional and social IQ can be said to be somewhat lacking. It's implicit from the drama cds, that they did indeed spend plenty of time together as friends outside of school.

Regarding friendship, Shizuru is thematically imperative. The only thing separating Nao and Natsuki as foils is friendship - which she was able to attain at the persistence of Shizuru's overtures. This softens her up for the later overtures of Mai and the other HiME.

In regards to her break down. Yes, it is never clarified what specifically went on in the house with Natsuki sleeping other than kisses and furtive caresses. It's not OK, but Shizuru has run out of time. Like everyone (and as everyone keeps expressing, so many of the other HiME also slipped a foot or two off into the deep end once the in-fighting started).

She accepts Haruka's opinions of her and further denigrates herself. In such a socially repressive environment as Japan, in a position like it's implied that she has, that kind of shame and guilt must feel staggering. It's hard enough to have those kinds of feelings in liberal by comparison, rugged individualist USA.

To have been exposed in that manner, and then be rejected in the worst way possible. Not a note or phone call, a scream and step away. The person you love most is terrified of you, repulsed by the idea of your touch...and you're going to die. You're all going to die. At that point, what is it all for? What does anything even matter? I think just about anyone would have been washed with an extreme sense of fatalism at that moment.

She could have thrown up her hands. She could have decided to muster some anger, and think "I did all of this for you, see if I help you again", that too would have been a semi-natural response. Instead, she decides to carry on and continue to protect Natsuki. She can't give her anything else, she's not allowed. The one thing she can do is make sure Natsuki stays alive.

After she destroys Diana, I'm not entirely certain but the words she says I think are aimed toward Haruka leaving Yukino with an armband. Seeing a possible future self, sitting with some scrap of what used to be Natsuki and feeling afraid of that. So she says the equivalent of, "screw it, I love you, you just sit tight and let me handle it."

What place do morals have in a world where the person you love's life depends on your ability to act outside of them?

I get it, the average person might think they couldn't do something like that. They woul never sacrifice their personal belief in what's "right."

For some people, for a lot of people, they'll hide their criminal children. They'll strangle another human being with their bare hands for touching their wife. In the defense of people they care about, some people will find that the act of protection is what is right, no matter the cost.

Even the cost of yourself.

In the Kiyohime story, it's Kiyohime that kills the both of them not Anchin. If that was her intention, she would probably have killed Natsuki under the bell. She doesn't kill Natsuki, her instinct is to just pull the girl over and hold her. I don't think she could have done it.

This is my subjective view of Shizuru based on what I watched. If I were Shizuru, I would have been planning on dying the entire time. From the first day that I found out that only one of us could win, only one of us could live. I would take my kisses and touches, thinking that she'd never know. Because I was going to sacrifice myself for her, and take these memories to my grave. Kill her enemies and disappear.














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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Yuri-hime on Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:37 am

^ @ BubuzukeOnna - Major major kudos to you for this post ^.^

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:41 am

Onna, (Is it okay if I call you that? I asked on MU but I still don't know if you're okay with it or not and I wouldn't want to call you something you don't approve of.) reading your post, you shed a new light about Shizuru onto me. True, the reason she catches my interest is being she "crosses the line" and does all of those morally unacceptable things; she breaks the usual character molds and I like characters that do that. Some examples along with Shizuru...
I like Yukariko; she's spineless and in the end she cannot defeat her demons. (Ironic sentence, but I can't think of another way to put it.) She kills herself along with Ishigami.
I like Midori (my favorite character); she sacrifices her own Child and MIP so Miyu can help break the Carnival 300-year chain. I noticed you said Shizuru did the same thing:

I get it, the average person might think they couldn't do something like that. They woul never sacrifice their personal belief in what's "right."

All of that said, after looking at your post, I can say that I was analyzing Shizuru based on her actions and not her... um, her-ness? Her actual character? Does that even make sense?

Why does it seem this message is all over the place? Okay- tl;dr: thanks for showing Shizuru in a different light than what I'm use to seeing her in. =)


Last edited by SpiralDasher on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:49 am

@Yuri Thanks :)

@Spiral shortening the handle is more than fine, I had meant shortening my given name - Nicole. Being called Nikki leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Thank you for responding, as is popular to say these days - I have a lot of Shizuru "feelings." My messages are chronically tl;dr, at least I've learned to use the space bar so they're not violent and rampaging walls of text.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:33 am

At least you can type a proper reply without grammatical or spelling mistakes; I'm looking over my reply to you, and in that small post I've found four so far! Two within the same sentence!! -ducks head in shame- Granted I was half-watching the news on the TV, but I still feel like wincing.

Excuse me while I go edit my post. >_<

(Sorry for the off-topic reply.)

Edit: There, conscious cleared. ^^

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by TheDreamer on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:06 am

BubuzukeOnna, you make some excellent points. I read your post last night and had time this morning to mull over it.

Regarding Shizuru's infamous break-down and her presumed molestation of Natsuki, I have always disliked the (seemingly most popular) answer that the Carnival itself made her do such things. The Carnival itself doesn't fundamentally change anyone's personality, nor does it turn anyone good or evil. Every action has some logical basis in the character that performs that action. Despite the immense amount of pressure every HiME is in, some, like Midori or Natsuki, never seem to fall into darkness. In other words, your choices during the game are still very much your own. The coordinators of the game may manipulate certain emotions and traits within you, but they can not add things to your personality that are not there already. Otherwise, it would largely defeat the show's brutal study in human nature, rendering it a colorful and mindness clash of mecha against mecha.

This is not to say that Shizuru would have been capable of the things that she did without the context of the Carnival. And considering her behavior prior to the end-game - i.e. being content to love Natsuki from a respectful distance and simply look out for her best interests - I don't think she would have been capable of those things. What I have always wanted to see, and what BubuzukeOnna has just given me the pleasure to witness, is an in-depth analysis of how the circumstances of the Carnival influenced her actions.

I want to expand on that post from a slightly different angle.

Shizuru is faced with an incredibly harsh reality. That there are monsters and villains only a handful of otherwise normal woman have the power to defeat, and that she is one of them. That because of this power, her beloved Natsuki will most likely die. That in order for Natsuki to live, everyone else's loved one must die. That is an immense amount of additional pressure on someone who is already accustomed to hiding her emotions and silently bearing her guilt and shame.

With guilt and shame also comes anger and resentment. While she is accustomed to taking everything in stride, I would be surprised if she doesn't feel the slightest bit of rage at her family for molding her into what she is, at society for the harsh judgments that it imposes on her innermost desires, or at the people around her for happily accepting her persona at face-value. All of it reaffirms the notion that nobody cares about who she is or how she feels, and that everyone, family or no, is perfectly willing to build their happiness on her isolation.

Yukino's accusations toward her is but one in a lifetime of skewed assumptions Shizuru has had to endure. I like BubuzukeOnna's idea that Shizuru's plan from the beginning is to sacrifice everything for Natsuki, and that she, indeed, takes her touches and kisses thinking that Natsuki will never know. But Yukino and Haruka don't understand that. Nobody does. Nobody ever understands, and why should they? Shizuru never communicates.

And now, on top of the sacrifices she has already made, not just in the Carnival but in her brief lifetime, someone's ignorant, uninformed misassumption has just cost her Natsuki.

I think at that point, everything crumbled. This black, numbing, wordless anger that has gathered little by little throughout her entire life finally burst out from her tenuous grasp, settling its deadly gaze upon the catalysts of its release. And after having taken her first human life before Natsuki's eyes, and witnessing, though Yukino's fate, the reality of being a HiME, nothing would be the same for her again. All of her efforts have been futile. The struggle is ultimately meaningless. Enter, extreme sense of fatalism, snuggled up to that black, numbing anger to create a not-entirely-unplausible mindset for a rampaging murderer.

But her actions prior to this were actually far from useless. It is her friendship that gave Natsuki strength to form connections with the other HiME, and with the residual energy of that love, Natsuki now turns around and saves her. By showing Shizuru love, romantic or no, Natsuki has, in a way, absolved her of her sins and suffering, because finally, someone, the one she loves most, is willing to hold her in her arms and accept the real Shizuru. Before she passes on, she is, perhaps for the first time she can remember, truly content.

But this one event is not enough to undo an entire lifetime of conditioning. She can open up more easily now to Natsuki, as evidenced by her breaking down into tears and asking for forgiveness after her resurrection. But when confronted with her actions by the other HiME, her old mask is firmly in place, thereby giving us that infamously infuriating "kannin-na" line.

Now, I admit to being one of those people who absolutely despise the ending. After being forced to face their own weaknesses and, for some, brutality, I don't think that the happy-go-lucky ending did any of them justice. I actually don't have an issue with the "kannin-na" line; knowing Shizuru, I would have been more surprised if she were actually able to open up to all the HiME right then and there. Instead, her flippant and almost flamboyant reaction reminds us that the walls are still very much there. That is one loose end that is not cleanly handled by the end of the series - and I don't think it should be.

What I dislike is how easily the other HiME accept the "kannin-na" line. Is it because they actually know she's sincerely sorry? Maybe. Is it because of the apocalypse they now have to prevent by destroying the HiME star together? More than likely. But if I were one of them, I would have thought to myself, "bullshit. That's not the end of it. This woman needs to talk it out with someone, or several people. Note to self: don't let her get out of it that easily. Try and get to know this girl at some point." But, that may also be my personal bias as a Shizuru fan.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:36 pm

I'd like to count you a bosom companion, but I swear your Touko icon is Maki-Maki'ing me....

Thank you for expanding on my comments, I probably missed some things that you covered more thoroughly then I would have.

Not to mention that it was far less clinical than my own, which might make it an easier digest. In some places it was downright poetic.

We seem to have scared off the natives, though. Come back Multi-versians...I only bite in the most pleasant of ways!


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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by TheDreamer on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:01 pm

She's Maki-Maki'ing you in the most winsome of ways, I assure you. And you should take part of the credit, as it was your insightful post that inspired most of the thoughts of mine.

If they do not wish to be bitten most pleasantly, you could always practice on the one other person who is here.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:40 pm

My apologies for seemingly disappearing my attention was unfortunetly elsewhere. It is always nice to see a different perspective especially on a pairing I enjoy so. Many of the arguments against Shizuru that I have seen and attempted to use here seem to willingly ignore the fact that Shizuru wasn't the only one to go a little crazy.

That said I have since changed my view of Shizuru as something less than a villian yet more than a victim.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:07 am

Ha, I still see her as a villain. Her right along with Yukino and Yukariko. If these people weren't villains, this anime wouldn't have some of the depth that it had; it'd be one of those, "Let's all hold hands and beat them with the power of friendship! -CareBear Staaaaaaare-"

Okay, maybe that example was a little goofy, but you get my point.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by BubuzukeOnna on Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:10 am

@Spiral

In my opinion only Nagi, "The Obsidian Lord" and John Smith could be characterized as villains in the usual sense of the word.

I find that the stories with the most depth are the ones in which no one is truly a villain or a hero. Where the lines are blurred, and there are only people - some more flawed than others, but all of them flawed.

@Magus No problem, glad to hear you've since looked a bit more kindly upon the original bubuzuke onna hehe

@Dreamer How kind of you to so graciously offer yourself up to my appetites.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by SpiralDasher on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:18 am

I don't mean her specifically, but her role. Not talking about her as a person, we've talked about her as a person, but her as a plot point.

I agree with everyone's view that the Himes are both villains and victims both. Analyze each character and you'll find a dark part to their story. In my opinion, however, some characters played the villain role.

I'm not trying to force this view on anyone nor am I challenging anyone to prove me wrong. Honestly, I don't really care enough to get into an debate over something like this. This is my opinion that I'm just stating. =)

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

Post by Magus Phantalus on Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 am

BubuzukeOnna wrote:



@Magus No problem, glad to hear you've since looked a bit more kindly upon the original bubuzuke onna hehe


Actually it's the opposoite my love for Shizuru(and Natsuki) made me ignore her flaws. Now though since I can approach it a bit more objectively I can see Shizuru had her flaws and did play an antagonisitc role. This just makes me like the character more though a character with flaws is more easily related to.

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Re: Why is Shizuru hated by some fans?

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